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1.82 Balance Problems

By on June 11, 2014 2:19:19 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Stilat

Join Date 05/2014
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June 11, 2014 8:19:25 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting WJC3688,
 As to corvettes blowing up constructors and scouts then running around the gravity well, first of all that sounds very micro intensive, have you seen this done in any actual PvP matches? 

I've certainly seen the good players exploit that game mechanic (fairly) by leaving a constructor-respawn-delaying force. For instance, Grimm does it vs. Doci in this replay (http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/451781/page/1/) around the 22 minute mark at the roid Nisyros. Grimm blows up the constructor with his Disciples and leaves one Disciple behind while Doci has some 13 Cobalts chasing it in the system. (Grimm needed his disciples elsewhere to chase Doci's Akkan.) Sure a scout would have been better but he had none around. Neither side had corvettes yet. Blowing up constructors and delaying their respawn was important (and feasible) enough for Grimm in that situation (the extractors were all up but there were no defense structures up, particularly no repair platform; actually Doci had scheduled a broadcast center as more pressing there because the roid was under the influence of Grimm's culture centers), and there was another fight going on the diametrically opposite side of the galaxy that also saw a fair bit of micro... simultaneously with the aforementioned action. So Grimm's not so circular pathing is surely excusable there; he plotted a big triangle basically. The intent of the Disciple left behind was clear to me though. His Disciple got killed when it ran out of plotted path, but delayed the respawn of the constructor a bit. (You can tell this because the constructor respwaned just as the lone Disciple died, so it was over its peace time timer.) Grimm got back to Nisyros with some 22 or so Disciples, just in time as the newly spawned constructor was getting started on the broadcast center; So Grimm's first target was again the constructor frigate, even though he was opposed by some 23 Cobalts. And he killed it yet again before it could finish the broadcast center. So don't take my word for it, take the actions of the revered pros on these forums. 

 

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June 11, 2014 10:12:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

^^^That is definitely troubling. I've always hated how easy it is for enemy corvettes, even dumb AI corvettes, to pick off all my constructor frigates, leaving me dead in the water unless a large fleet just so happens to be nearby. I would prefer they remove that constructor-rebuild penalty, but I believe there will be no future content for this game, so MP players are just SOL.

 

Quoting Turchany,


Quoting furyofthestars, reply 16you're the one making the point, the burden of proof is on you)

 

this

"Burden of proof" is just an excuse for fans of a belief considered to be the status quo to avoid having to actually engage with the issue at hand.

It's taken me most of my free time tonight just figuring out how to set up a "frigate deathbattle arena" but using galaxy forge and the dev console I've succeeded. In equal fleet supply small groups, 5 gardas v. 4 cobalts, I was able to run my 5 gardas in loop-de-loops around the cobalts and basically trade 1 for 1 with them. Eventually it was whittled down to 1 garda vs 1 cobalt at which point the 1 cobalt won, but..... not really the results you would expect from a "hard counter." I was able to do this on my very first try, with zero prior experience micro'ing gardas against light frigates. Just continuously clicking in circles got the job done. Not really what you would expect from a supposedly micro intensive strategy. The same test with no micro naturally ends with all 4 cobalts alive, but the power of Flak is obviously not in stationary shoot-outs.

These initial results are promising, so I'm confident that with further testing I can truly confirm that Flak frigates are the most powerful in this game. Of course, my most "realistic" tests have already been conducted, which were actual games against Unfair AIs where Flak proved to be by far the most efficient unit to build and was instrumental in the tipping point fleet battles..... but that is not enough for the "burden of proof" I suppose.

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June 11, 2014 10:38:31 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well, ignoring all the Stilat/Hyrdaling/etc./Sinkiller posts, this is actually a worthwhile thread. Nice comments. Aside from Stilat/Hyrdaling/etc./Sinkiller.

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June 11, 2014 10:40:08 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Its funny how for someone who doesnt play MP and understands shit about the game, Ryat has a lot to say.

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June 11, 2014 10:42:10 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Stilat,

Its funny how for someone who doesnt play MP and understands shit about the game, Ryat has a lot to say.

Oh pages and pages.

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June 12, 2014 12:47:43 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Can ryat seriously gtfo? Im considering whethr or not to kick him out of the clan if he continues this nonsense.

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June 12, 2014 1:35:52 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting WJC3688,
not really the results you would expect from a "hard counter."

 

Noone said it is a hard counter. You can even realise this even if you are only trying to colonize neutral planets, light frigates take some time to kill flak, not as fast as LRM's kill your LF's.

It is n interesting thing to know that flak is a strong ship, but your main point was that flak is OP. I STILL SEE NO PROOF HERE. Remember, strong and useful does not equal being overpowered.

Just because there are ways this frigate has more power than usually, it in no ways means it is OP, or the strongest in the game, you could find ways to say this about everything else... It still has counter strategies unlike the jumping starbases, wail, Maw did not really have.

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June 12, 2014 3:26:28 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Stilat,

Yes, lets nerf the vasari to the ground... Surely they didnt get enough nerfs the last five patches right?

 

I don't mean Vasari starbases... I mean ALL starbases. If starbases all had a supply cost then it would just be awesome in my opinion. (and at the same time resolve the potential abuse of mobile starbases without having to resort to hard-coding restrictions that are currently in place)

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June 12, 2014 3:54:29 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Wintercross,
I don't mean Vasari starbases... I mean ALL starbases. If starbases all had a supply cost then it would just be awesome in my opinion. (and at the same time resolve the potential abuse of mobile starbases without having to resort to hard-coding restrictions that are currently in place)

 

This is not that bad idea, maybe this would restrict the starbase spamming of some AI's somewhat (lol not Vasari as it never builds enoughw even to cover his frontline, but only if he is your ally...).

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June 12, 2014 10:39:26 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Turchany,


Quoting WJC3688, reply 27not really the results you would expect from a "hard counter."

 

Noone said it is a hard counter. You can even realise this even if you are only trying to colonize neutral planets, light frigates take some time to kill flak, not as fast as LRM's kill your LF's.

It is n interesting thing to know that flak is a strong ship, but your main point was that flak is OP. I STILL SEE NO PROOF HERE. Remember, strong and useful does not equal being overpowered.

Just because there are ways this frigate has more power than usually, it in no ways means it is OP, or the strongest in the game, you could find ways to say this about everything else... It still has counter strategies unlike the jumping starbases, wail, Maw did not really have.

 

Another lazy response that avoids posting any real support of the given viewpoint by quibbling over semantics. "OP, strong, useful"..... I'm not interested in your personal definitions of those terms relative to each other. If I allow you to just define terms like "proof" and "overpowered" as whatever you want them to be in order to avoid admitting that you are wrong, the discussion will be quite fruitless. This is what interests me:

The Rock Paper Scissors of Sins Frigates

Light Frigate > Corvette > LRF > Light Frigate

See how nice and balanced that is? But now we add a mysterious challenger to the equation, the equivalent of playing "Rock Paper Scissors Laser Rifle"

Flak > Corvette

Flak > LRF

Flak = Light Frigate

In our new version of rock paper scissors the only logical choice out of 4 is Flak/Laser Rifle. It beats or trades with all other options no matter what the opponent picks. Anyone would agree that this version of Rock Paper Scissors is quite imbalanced. It's time for these flak-hating special interests to admit their biases and move aside so that our Sins understanding can progress to a higher level.

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June 12, 2014 11:23:48 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If you add to that that Illums also have side guns and massively more hp [than other factions' LRFs], the generic notion of "LRF" pretty much goes out the window. It would be interesting to see concrete sandbox matches of [same fleet supply of] Gardas vs Illums, Sentinels [with and without their AoE reseached] vs. Javelis or vs. Illums etc. But there's already another active thread for that (http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/455006/page/1/), so let's not turn every thread in the perennial debate whether flak [which?] is or isn't overpowered [vs. ??]

 

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June 12, 2014 11:30:42 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting WJC3688,
"OP, strong, useful"..... I'm not interested in your personal definitions of those terms relative to each other

 

You don't seem to understand what I mean. And never will. Just believe flak is OP and you can be happy, even if it's not true. If for you OP equals good, and every good unit should be nerfed, then it's your problem not mine.

Until flak spam is not unbearably common online that these totally ruin the game as there is no other choice but to build these, I cannot really care. Unfortunately the only one who has "ever seen" flak spam online is Sinkillr, and his words are not that reliable because of the massive trolling he does recently.

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June 12, 2014 11:31:54 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I agree that Ilums are really more a separate class of frigate than a variant of LRF. They are more like flaks with LRF damage modifiers as IIRC their side guns can fire perfectly well even while moving at top speed. Their big weakness compared to Flak is an ineffectiveness against strike craft, but they are very strong against other frigates. It will be interesting to see how flaks fare against them in a controlled environment, I have beaten Ilum fleets with Flak fleets in real games, but these inevitably contain many extenuating factors (unequal fleet supply, differing capital ships and supporting ships, etc.).

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June 13, 2014 9:37:43 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting RespawnedTitanL10,


Quoting WJC3688, reply 11 As to corvettes blowing up constructors and scouts then running around the gravity well, first of all that sounds very micro intensive, have you seen this done in any actual PvP matches? 

I've certainly seen the good players exploit that game mechanic (fairly) by leaving a constructor-respawn-delaying force. For instance, Grimm does it vs. Doci in this replay (http://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/451781/page/1/) around the 22 minute mark at the roid Nisyros. Grimm blows up the constructor with his Disciples and leaves one Disciple behind while Doci has some 13 Cobalts chasing it in the system. (Grimm needed his disciples elsewhere to chase Doci's Akkan.) Sure a scout would have been better but he had none around. Neither side had corvettes yet. Blowing up constructors and delaying their respawn was important (and feasible) enough for Grimm in that situation (the extractors were all up but there were no defense structures up, particularly no repair platform; actually Doci had scheduled a broadcast center as more pressing there because the roid was under the influence of Grimm's culture centers), and there was another fight going on the diametrically opposite side of the galaxy that also saw a fair bit of micro... simultaneously with the aforementioned action. So Grimm's not so circular pathing is surely excusable there; he plotted a big triangle basically. The intent of the Disciple left behind was clear to me though. His Disciple got killed when it ran out of plotted path, but delayed the respawn of the constructor a bit. (You can tell this because the constructor respwaned just as the lone Disciple died, so it was over its peace time timer.) Grimm got back to Nisyros with some 22 or so Disciples, just in time as the newly spawned constructor was getting started on the broadcast center; So Grimm's first target was again the constructor frigate, even though he was opposed by some 23 Cobalts. And he killed it yet again before it could finish the broadcast center. So don't take my word for it, take the actions of the revered pros on these forums. 

 

Oh, and at the 33 minute mark, Doci does the same at the Oceanic so he can pull out his Cobalts from there [except one, of course] to chase off Grimm's Prog at the moon. This game is more aptly called Sins of a Runaround Respawn Retardant.

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June 17, 2014 6:50:35 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Seleuceia,

Unity Mass needs to do chaining damage...

 

Stubborn like an Ankylon.....

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June 18, 2014 9:40:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Another Seleuceia head pops up.

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June 30, 2014 8:52:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Perhaps the best solution endless chasing would just be to give each planet a [very weak] gun that targets frigates only?

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July 1, 2014 3:43:09 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Be even easier to change the phase jump times to enemy worlds...in the player file, you'd just slow down the default jump rate and boost the bonus to friendly worlds...

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July 4, 2014 3:08:44 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Responses to some interesting points in this thread.

Quoting Stilat,

Literally no one who understands the game agrees with you siddy...

They have always needed supply costs, the vasari starbase more than any other.

Yes, lets nerf the vasari to the ground... Surely they didnt get enough nerfs the last five patches right?
 

The purpose of balance is to balance, with a game like sins perfect balance will not be achieved.  Yet, relative balance is of absolute importance, and there are some glaring issues with relative balance between the races.  The vasari are still majorly imbalanced.  People spam their starbases because they give the best bang for the buck.  I think the vasari shouldn't be forced into a turtle situation every game, balancing their starbases can create a dialog on actually balancing the whole race itself.

We need to organize pure 5v5's to truly test racial efficacy.  One team will go all vasari, the other team will go all TEC or all Advent.  Then after a few games we could get a really clear sense of the level of balance, rotating skilled players around in an attempt to limit the impact of skill.

Corsev does seem OP late game.

I couldn't agree more, this ship is incredibly tough to kill.

I don't see major imbalances in Orky vs TEC/Advent fleet. While Orky has no fleet supply cost (after it's up) it does have non-trivial build costs, so the cumulative costs of adding one that can survive the single enemy fleet of doom at every planet is what constrains such a strategy...

Yet at the end, the vasari strategy usually wins because the vasari player has far better control of timing due to the design of the abilities of the race.  They can choose when they build the starbase, so therefore they will build it when it has the best chance of surviving the build(usually when your fleet is away).  This forces the advent/tec player into playing a defensive (and therefore wasteful and losing) strategy.  I for one am against vasari starbases being constructed freely anywhere in the map.  Perhaps having a requirement that the starbase be constructed only around a vasari colony, or having the fleet supply cost of a capital ship.  Starbase construction has always given the vasari far too much control of the game.

On the other hand, the Vasari repair platform seems excessively weak
 

Weak repairs are the best balance that the vasari have in the early game, taking this away ensures complete vasari imbalance.  If you need better repairs, then build around your strategy and build a carrier.  Honestly, Vasari repairs are tech 1...they do a great job hardening a starbase already...  Don't forget that overseers are the strategically best healers in the game, well used they can lure massive amounts of dps from an enemy fleet at no risk to your assets, yet still compel players to focus fire on the target because it is low in health. 

Anyway, why does Phasic Barrier make my units attack another thing?

This annoys the crap out of me, too.

Because the hidden underlying advantage of the vasari is superior strategic control of time.  Having a better control of time through their abilities the vasari will be inherently stronger.

And in general, given the importance of planet constructors, repair ships and platforms should auto-cast on them, not turn Sins in a game of "you were-1s-too-slow doing that obnoxious click sequence for the N-th time, therefore you lost the game to resource econ attrition".

This game is more aptly called Sins of a Runaround Respawn Retardant.

I agree.  I posted a thread a year or two ago that discussed ideas on improving planetary constructors in general, allowing players to improve them via specialized tech's as a way to provide simple upgrades to substantially change the game.

Anyone can write an "explanation" as to why they feel this or that is OP/UP/Good/Bad/etc, but that doesn't automatically make them right.  Crunch numbers, run tests, even look at everything that would be affected by changing the stats on flak (not just the one aspect of frigates), and then display everything for all to see... not just say you did and we should take your word for it (or expect that we have to do the same... you're the one making the point, the burden of proof is on you).

That said, I'm not in 100% disagreement with you.  My thoughts on it are actually a bit different and fairly complex, so with the little time I ever have anymore I doubt I'll be able to do much proof of concept testing on it.

Crunching numbers won't help a lot with your higher understanding of sins, the game deals with other strategic variables that are not number friendly, such as what is the precise numerical value of a starbase that moves vs. a starbase that does not?  What is the precise value of repulse?  What is the precise value of 3 jumps to an enemy HW vs. 4 jumps?  This is where experience comes in.  If you have experience and know the mechanics then you can provide a good opinion, the downside of experience is that it doesn't usually have the happy feeling that we are taught in school to have when we use math to prove ourselves.

Also, if you look to math as the sole satisfaction to your burden of proof, then you will limit your understanding as math itself is an idea, it is our best guess at understanding what IS real.  Math is taught as if it is real, yet it is truly an imagining of the mind, as well as being only a small part of understanding what can observed in our world.  Math does attempt to explain it all, much like a religion, yet it cannot.

You do a disservice to your intelligence by limiting your thoughts to mathematical certainty.  Math is not the only certainty, and this philosophy that pervades our educational system is a major cultural bias, nothing more, nothing less.

Also, you assume that people writing an explanation are "feeling" it.  Experience comes from actually living it, observing real phenomenon, much of which is outside the scope of quantifiable observation, even a game that is composed of pure math can express realities that are not mathematical.  So, we resolve this via rhetorical discussion, which has it's own set of flaws and is currently in disfavor within academia(not because it is flawed, this is instead a bias).  Since our understanding of our world is so small we have to use other less precise forms of discussion.  If this troubles you then become a scientist.

"Burden of proof" is just an excuse for fans of a belief considered to be the status quo to avoid having to actually engage with the issue at hand.
 

A more efficient reply to the above response, definitely quicker to read.  

Well, there is the point, too, that the Orkys are slower than shizniz.  If the Vasari player is merely starbasing the chokepoints, it's actually not that hard for an enemy fleet to bypass em.

It's also very easy for the vasari to put up some jump destabilizers so that you can't bypass them...So easy in fact that this happens almost every multiplayer game I play against vasari players.

in 5s games, Feeding vasari is most cost effective way to spend money because you get a good efficiency % on the feed and you can push the gravity well and leave defenses.
 

I couldn't agree with siddy more.  Vasari need a feed nerf, and have since entrenchement.

No, feeding vasari is vastly inefficient because it doesnt translate inti an immediate advantage... its not uncommon for vasaris to float thousands of credits at a time... vs tec/advent who are going to spend it on flak/lf spam.
 

Seemingly true if you play some multiplayer, yet in an actual high skill game you will realize that this is false, majorly false. Siddy and I have played with the best players this game has ever had, not just a few games, but years of games.  Any player with this level of experience knows that if you give a good vasari player early feed and they have even a few neutrals on the map, the vasari player can quickly and easily 2v1 anyone(this is an immediate advantage...you just aren't used to playing against great vasari players).  I am not making this up, I have seen it happen a LOT.  The thing is the vasari allow for far more control, so if you have two players of extremely high skill, the racial advantages of the vasari win out.  The greatest determinant of the vasari victory then becomes luck(map placement).  That should not be so for any race, that is why we need better balance so that skill can be the determining factor for vasari victory.  Map placement is so important because of the vasari's inherent turtle abilities.  I propose that the developers rebalance the orkulus in fundamental ways so that the vasari aren't so map bound.  The thread I have written on making all starbases have some degree mobility allows for this reality.

These initial results are promising, so I'm confident that with further testing I can truly confirm that Flak frigates are the most powerful in this game. Of course, my most "realistic" tests have already been conducted, which were actual games against Unfair AIs where Flak proved to be by far the most efficient unit to build and was instrumental in the tipping point fleet battles..... but that is not enough for the "burden of proof" I suppose.

Flak make great frigate killers in sustained fights.  Players jump their fleets in and out of gravity wells all the time in multiplayer. Doing this changes the nature of the fight, using flak effectively becomes more about reaction time and therefore will alter your simulation's results, as the flak will take heavier initial losses when the fleets come together.  Much of the other flak dps is uncontrolled and therefore requires time to see value, time that a smart player will not give you.  Therefore flak being overpowered is a nice idea but it is not overpowered because both players have control over time, player skill is the primary balancing factor here therefore flak is balanced.

Good thread

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July 4, 2014 3:16:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I guess one could make them spawn invincible frigates with a large fleet supply cost and have the starbase destroy them when the starbase dies.

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July 4, 2014 3:39:43 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Double post, hit the wrong button

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July 7, 2014 9:17:03 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting sareth01,
Crunching numbers[snip]

I was not saying to rely on crunching of numbers alone.  However, the argument of something is OP while not giving much of an explanation beyond theory doesn't work, either.


Quoting sareth01,
"Burden of proof" is just an excuse for fans of a belief considered to be the status quo to avoid having to actually engage with the issue at hand.  

A more efficient reply to the above response, definitely quicker to read.

???  How about, "we all don't have the time to test every aspect of this game to see some of this for ourselves.  So if you want us to believe you, prove it"?

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July 19, 2014 9:16:18 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I've been out of the loop for quite some time.

 

Question, how is the late game Advent doing vs late game Vasari right now?

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July 19, 2014 10:13:01 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

It's fine...titan AoE's make it hard to use large amounts of flak late game...on top of that, corvettes counter bombers and fighters counter corvettes...all of these things make it so that late game fleets tend to be very fighter heavy, and thus Advent no longer have to worry about being raped by phase missiles....repulsion and the Advent SB abilities also are handy at dealing with large swarms of corvettes, which tend to be a big part of the Vasari fleet composition...

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July 20, 2014 10:49:56 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

So then this game is mostly ok?

 

Back when I was active:

 

Advent vs TEC, generally balanced

TEC vs Vasari; TEC early game advantage, Vasari late game advantage

Advent vs Vasari: With phase missiles, Vasari was at a major advantage

 

What is it like now?

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