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Heavy cruisers not worth the money? Do they need a buff?

By on July 29, 2014 12:16:13 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

UnleashedElf

Join Date 03/2013
+15

I find that Heavy Cruisers don't have much of a place in most fleets.

 

Although they can be somewhat useful as tanks, they generally don't seem to last very long against certain strategies or abilities like Chastic Burst.

 

It's not so much that they are weak in absolute terms as much as it is that their cost makes them hard to justify. Should they be given some sort of a buff?

 

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July 29, 2014 2:12:22 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

"Chastic burst is strong against heavy cruisers" No its not.

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July 29, 2014 3:31:56 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,

"Chastic burst is strong against heavy cruisers"

Lol wut.

 

I was referring to the fleet on fleet battles.

 

Let's say you have

- Titan, a few capital ships, fleet of frigates

- Enemy has: Titan, capital ships, fleet of frigates

 

You meet in some system.

 

Chastic burst won't kill them in one blow, but it will weaken them, especially with sustained bursts. Plus if they do focus on the Titan, as the Titan gets under 50% and under 25% hp, the fleet will be microwaved repeatedly in a very short period of time, overwhelming repair.

It also means that other abilities can be used in combination. Malice for example, which although it was nerfed a long time ago, works well with Chastic Burst. Examples of other things that work well are Fracture. Even if you did not kill outright, you could follow up with Amplify Energy Aura.

 

Is having a disproportionate number of your fleet invested in heavy cruisers really going to pay off from a resource:utility standpoint?

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July 29, 2014 4:06:27 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yes, pure brute force can be effective at times.

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July 29, 2014 5:11:18 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Elaborate on why.

 

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July 30, 2014 12:19:05 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Vasari Enforcers are superior and the rest just annoy me because Carriers have an unlimited range for damage plus cause more chaos in a gravity well for star-bases, capital ships and titans. 

 

The end game is carriers, titan, utilities cruisers and corvettes. All are resistant to (some extent) Titan Abilities. 

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July 30, 2014 12:23:22 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Carriers fail against HCs once the latter reaches critical mass.

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July 30, 2014 1:09:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Currently HCs aren't really much beyond a damage soak. Maybe an extention on their range may help as they don't really have much, less then a light frigate IIRC. As Ohoh2 brought out, once bomber come out, they kind of neutralize HCs.

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July 30, 2014 1:15:31 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Maybe giving heavy cruisers some sort of flak ability would help? Not sure if this would introduce other problems though.

 

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July 30, 2014 1:39:25 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Its a sad day when guys like ryat who doesnt even play MP are taken seriously. 

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July 30, 2014 2:00:41 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting UnleashedElf,

Maybe giving heavy cruisers some sort of flak ability would help? Not sure if this would introduce other problems though.

 

Kind of like what is on the Kol? Hmmmm... (makes notes for Distant Stars mod). For MP maybe more of a combined arms approach with corvettes as they are designed with the attempt to handle bombers (one of their weapons is anti-light with the ability to hit strike craft) while the HCs get in knife fighting range.

Quoting Sinkillr,

ryat who doesnt even play MP

Yes, it has been a while but I do try to stay on top of the theorycrafting that goes on here and when someone who knows what they are talking about comes in I defer to them. Lately though, all I have seen if you and FLAK RULEZ ALL! commentary.

 

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July 30, 2014 3:21:42 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Heavy cruisers are used in a variety of situations, but usually they are to brute force a high level marza or low level titan...most likely they will be built by a frontliner suddenly getting lots of feed or an eco player trying to fleet up and double on a large fleet...

If you go the route of HCs, you have a narrow window of opportunity to make use of them....the enemy will easily counter with bombers, hoshikos, and/or guardians, so whatever you plan to do with them you have to do fast...once titans get to higher levels and Advent/TEC SBs start getting their abilities, HCs are pretty much useless...

They serve a purpose and in certain situations can be the best option...not every game will see them though, and they usually depend on the element of surprise...

 

 

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July 30, 2014 4:51:47 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting UnleashedElf,

Maybe giving heavy cruisers some sort of flak ability would help? Not sure if this would introduce other problems though.

Now I know your a troll. Flak does not need any more buffs, strikecraft are already useless in the current metagame because of how OP flak are.

Quoting Seleuceia,

Heavy cruisers are used in a variety of situations, but usually they are to brute force a high level marza or low level titan...most likely they will be built by a frontliner suddenly getting lots of feed or an eco player trying to fleet up and double on a large fleet...

If you go the route of HCs, you have a narrow window of opportunity to make use of them....the enemy will easily counter with bombers, hoshikos, and/or guardians, so whatever you plan to do with them you have to do fast...once titans get to higher levels and Advent/TEC SBs start getting their abilities, HCs are pretty much useless...

They serve a purpose and in certain situations can be the best option...not every game will see them though, and they usually depend on the element of surprise...

Rare quality post from Seleuceia, but he forgot to mention that bombers dont actually counter heavy cruisers once you have enough of both because the bombers overkill their targets and waste damage, while the easier to micro HCs dont.

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July 30, 2014 1:05:05 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,

Now I know your a troll. Flak does not need any more buffs, strikecraft are already useless in the current metagame.

 

Looking at your post history, I fail to see what you've added here or to the community. So far, for the past couple of months, all you've done is complain about the state of flak in the game.

 

Quoting Seleuceia,

Heavy cruisers are used in a variety of situations, but usually they are to brute force a high level marza or low level titan...most likely they will be built by a frontliner suddenly getting lots of feed or an eco player trying to fleet up and double on a large fleet...

If you go the route of HCs, you have a narrow window of opportunity to make use of them....the enemy will easily counter with bombers, hoshikos, and/or guardians, so whatever you plan to do with them you have to do fast...once titans get to higher levels and Advent/TEC SBs start getting their abilities, HCs are pretty much useless...

They serve a purpose and in certain situations can be the best option...not every game will see them though, and they usually depend on the element of surprise...


 

That's their weak point. They've got too many counters I'd say.

 

I think that yeah, adding some sort of flak ability to heavy cruisers to take out strike craft would be the best compromise.

 

They'd still have counters:

1. Most Titans have some anti-cruiser abilities

2. Repair cruisers and repair abilities in general

3. Certain capital ships would still be able to wear them down when supported

 

As it stands, they are really niche.

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July 30, 2014 2:36:12 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Did you not read what I just wrote? Read before sprouting such gibberish

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July 30, 2014 2:49:45 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Makes notes for rebalanced races...

 

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July 30, 2014 4:00:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

The problem with heavy cruisers is that their intended counter is bombers, which are an extremely popular unit. They are also somewhat of a jack of all trades unit, as they can counter most other combat frigates, but other units do a better job at killing any one particular kind of unit. They used to be the best non-carrier unit against LRF, but corvettes took that role from them. If bombers were less good or they got buffed against a certain type of threat perhaps they would be more commonly used.

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July 30, 2014 4:22:37 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Not that I want to enable Sinkillr, but what if composite did bonus damage to heavy armor?

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July 30, 2014 4:33:17 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Fighters are more common than bombers. No one uses mass bombers anymore except as surprise tactic. 

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July 30, 2014 6:14:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting GoaFan77,

The problem with heavy cruisers is that their intended counter is bombers, which are an extremely popular unit. They are also somewhat of a jack of all trades unit, as they can counter most other combat frigates, but other units do a better job at killing any one particular kind of unit. They used to be the best non-carrier unit against LRF, but corvettes took that role from them. If bombers were less good or they got buffed against a certain type of threat perhaps they would be more commonly used.

 

I think that giving them something to do reasonably well would be the solution.

 

Elaborating on what I said earlier, there are certain abilities that hurt a heavy-cruiser reliant fleet disproportionately. The Maw is perhaps the perfect example. A fleet with a lot of heavy cruisers would be harmed much more so than a corvette heavy or even a bomber heavy (could scatter carriers everywhere) fleet.

 

The best course of action is to give them something else to do other than stand there and soak.

 

1. Give all heavy cruisers some flak weapons on top of their current armament (basically a 2nd weapon)

2. Otherwise, give them something that they are good against

 

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July 30, 2014 6:21:53 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If you let Vorarstra reach level 6 (or any titan really) you deserve to lose.

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July 30, 2014 6:25:10 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I got to say, brillant troll thread you got here, UnleashedElf. Much better than the usual riffraff we get from the troll lobby.

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July 30, 2014 8:04:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,

I got to say, brillant troll thread you got here, UnleashedElf. Much better than the usual riffraff we get from the troll lobby.

 

Is this guy always like this?

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July 30, 2014 8:24:50 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting UnleashedElf,


Quoting Sinkillr,

I got to say, brillant troll thread you got here, UnleashedElf. Much better than the usual riffraff we get from the troll lobby.



Is this guy always like this?

He has multiple personalities (and forum accounts), but I wouldn't call any of them pleasant.

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July 30, 2014 8:37:06 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Why would you expect serious answers when you post such a half-assed thread like this? Heavy cruisers getting flak guns? Lol, that's almost as bad as that one guy's idea to implement Unity Mass chaining damage. Maybe learn the game first before posting whatever comes into your head. 

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July 30, 2014 8:44:24 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Now that I think about this, anti-light would be better suited for a 2nd weapon on all cruisers versus anti-very light.

 

But yeah, I'm at a loss as to how else they could be made effective, other than a flat out buff to their firepower and hp.

 

Quoting GoaFan77,


He has multiple personalities (and forum accounts), but I wouldn't call any of them pleasant.

 

I see.

 

I do not believe that he is interested in a serious discussion in this thread and appears to be here to troll, not offer productive conversation.

 

I think RagnorakEviscerator  is one of his alter accounts? Who else?

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