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Heavy cruisers not worth the money? Do they need a buff?

By on July 29, 2014 12:16:13 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

UnleashedElf

Join Date 03/2013
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I find that Heavy Cruisers don't have much of a place in most fleets.

 

Although they can be somewhat useful as tanks, they generally don't seem to last very long against certain strategies or abilities like Chastic Burst.

 

It's not so much that they are weak in absolute terms as much as it is that their cost makes them hard to justify. Should they be given some sort of a buff?

 

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July 30, 2014 9:22:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

For the record, in Rebalanced Races, I put AA guns on battleships and increased the ranges on anti-SC weapons, making it harder for bomber-heavy fleets to maintain firepower for longer fights.  Such an approach might also work here without touching HCs at all.

Alternatively, new abilities could always spice them up.

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July 30, 2014 11:41:51 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,

For the record, in Rebalanced Races, I put AA guns on battleships and increased the ranges on anti-SC weapons, making it harder for bomber-heavy fleets to maintain firepower for longer fights.  Such an approach might also work here without touching HCs at all.

Alternatively, new abilities could always spice them up.

Did the same in DS as well. It does help. Still have issues with alpha strike though.


Quoting UnleashedElf,

I think RagnorakEviscerator is one of his alter accounts? Who else?

Hmm lets see. Hydraling, Stilat, ratburn (on Steam forums - banned), and one or two others IIRC.

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July 31, 2014 12:29:23 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

As always, Ryat is quick to judge anyone who has a controversial opinion to being "smurfs" of mine... is it time for him to retire yet? All that tangerine juice must have made him go crazy...

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July 31, 2014 12:34:12 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ryat,


Did the same in DS as well. It does help. Still have issues with alpha strike though.


Hmm lets see. Hydraling, Stilat, ratburn (on Steam forums - banned), and one or two others IIRC.

I'm not really bothered by alpha strike though.  Personally, I feel like that's almost the iconic thing about SC in the game so the fact that it remains doesn't actually bother me.  If you really want to cut down on alpha strike damage though, you'd just have to nerf SC range.  That'd force them to come in closer and get hit by your anti-SC abilities.

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July 31, 2014 1:25:52 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I've always wondered about fighters. Perhaps they should be given a buff relative to bombers?

 

But yeah, I can't see in the case of Heavy Cruisers how else they could be made competitive.

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July 31, 2014 1:42:57 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Is there any more proof this guy is a troll? Buff fighters? Can you even beat hard AI?

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July 31, 2014 3:18:08 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

If Unity Mass did chaining damage, at least AL could counter flak spam...

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July 31, 2014 10:14:49 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting UnleashedElf,

I've always wondered about fighters. Perhaps they should be given a buff relative to bombers?

I think they tried this and it made LRFs melt as they have a similar armor composition to that of bombers.

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,

I'm not really bothered by alpha strike though. Personally, I feel like that's almost the iconic thing about SC in the game so the fact that it remains doesn't actually bother me. If you really want to cut down on alpha strike damage though, you'd just have to nerf SC range. That'd force them to come in closer and get hit by your anti-SC abilities.

You may have a point. We did do a reduce range on the SC in DS. We reduced the hitting power of the SC to a third and then gave the carriers an ability to give only their SCs 66% increase in firepower inside a certain range. It forces the carriers to get closer to the battle if you want your SCs to be more effective. So you can get an alpha strike but you have to be willing to pay for it.

Quoting Sinkillr,

Is there any more proof this guy is a troll? Buff fighters? Can you even beat hard AI?

By their fruits you will know them.

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July 31, 2014 12:38:58 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
For the record, in Rebalanced Races, I put AA guns on battleships and increased the ranges on anti-SC weapons, making it harder for bomber-heavy fleets to maintain firepower for longer fights.  Such an approach might also work here without touching HCs at all.

Alternatively, new abilities could always spice them up.

That's certainly one thing that has always bothered me about this game is that the only "counters" to SC are other SC or 1 frigate and the 1 ability on a Cap ship per side.  It would've made much more sense for at the very least the more important/big ships (ie, Caps, and really, even starbases) to have anti-SC weapons, though weaker than the dedicated frigate.  Otherwise you really are reaching an "all your eggs in one basket" type of a scenario.

The other thing has been fighter behavior.  Aside from 1v1 it takes multiple passes for a fighter to take down a bomber, there's also the fact that the fighter veers off and flies away from the bomber after each shot, making it have to turn back and catch back up before it can even fire again to then veer away once more....  But of course, that's not really moddable by us.

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July 31, 2014 2:10:16 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting furyofthestars,


Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
For the record, in Rebalanced Races, I put AA guns on battleships and increased the ranges on anti-SC weapons, making it harder for bomber-heavy fleets to maintain firepower for longer fights.  Such an approach might also work here without touching HCs at all.

Alternatively, new abilities could always spice them up.



That's certainly one thing that has always bothered me about this game is that the only "counters" to SC are other SC or 1 frigate and the 1 ability on a Cap ship per side.  It would've made much more sense for at the very least the more important/big ships (ie, Caps, and really, even starbases) to have anti-SC weapons, though weaker than the dedicated frigate.  Otherwise you really are reaching an "all your eggs in one basket" type of a scenario.

The other thing has been fighter behavior.  Aside from 1v1 it takes multiple passes for a fighter to take down a bomber, there's also the fact that the fighter veers off and flies away from the bomber after each shot, making it have to turn back and catch back up before it can even fire again to then veer away once more....  But of course, that's not really moddable by us.

well, you could turn it off and make them behave like normal ships...

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July 31, 2014 2:11:40 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

There was that tactic for a while where ones would force stop the fighters to get better effect from them.

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July 31, 2014 7:57:07 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

I miss using fighters as turrets...

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July 31, 2014 10:08:00 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Volt- Master of the one-liner.

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July 31, 2014 11:16:19 PM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ryat,


I think they tried this and it made LRFs melt as they have a similar armor composition to that of bombers.

 

That would explain it. Hmm ... I think that end game bomber spam can be very powerful in many ways.

 

The only real solution I can see is to create a new category of armor specifically for bombers and somewhat buff fighters and flak to be more effective against it. That and combine that with a second gun for heavy cruisers.

 

It would not be a huge buff though. Bombers would be viable still, but probably not as dominant.

 

I think the goal is should be to try to eventually reach a point where no single "spam" type is going to be so decisive.

 

Otherwise, I think there are a few other things that I would buff personally. The Vasari Rankulas for example is well ... ineffective. I think it needs to be re-thought of from ground up. The swarms need a massive buff to be competitive.

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August 1, 2014 12:01:12 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting UnleashedElf,

That would explain it. Hmm ... I think that end game bomber spam can be very powerful in many ways.

"I didn't bother to learn in-depth about this game, nor do I intend to. I cannot beat hard AI, nor do I intend to. I have not tried the PvP aspect, nor do I intend to. But I do intend to spread my ignorance around like a badge of honor,  labeling all those who disagree with me as "trolls" and "morons". I will not provide any facts or evidence to back up my opinions, even though I am a begineer player who still needs to learn the game. I will engage in the most mind-boggling theorycrafting that would impress even the ASOIAF fans. And above all else, thou shall ignore opposing evidence and assertions."

 

No wonder this game was such a mess balance-wise in the first year, Starclad had to contend with these singleplayer AI players who have no idea how the game works. The last time I saw liberal use of bombers was before the PM nerf... nowadays they are strictly used as a surprise tactic or if you have SC superiority. Mass fighter is much more common and effective, although it tends to lead to boring battles of attrition. 

 

As for Heavy Cruisers, my opinion closely resembles that of Seleuceia... Yes, they are very vulnerable to repulse and all those other special abilities but if you are an eco who needs a fleet up and quick there is no better option. Carriers take time to set up and their AM is gone the moment you jump 2-3 times from your factory. Even if you are a frontliner, they can be very effective if you disguise the production (although this isn't exclusive to HC). All your "buffs" to the HC are complete crackpot and will ruin the balance of this relatively balanced game... They're most vulnerable to abilities, not bombers... the only way to alleviate that is a slight increase in range... but why would we want that, when its not that big of a problem (or even a problem). And I find HCs to be fantastic titan killers once you get quite a few, especially if you get their debuffs/buffs (enforcer's is the best, tec is trash and will likely cause problems).


Don't believe me? Watch the skilled replays in that red ruby thread... You can see it live right there... And how sad that guys like Ryat and Seleuceia are feeding this guy's self-delusion... they know he's dead wrong but still carry on with the charade...

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August 1, 2014 12:03:17 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Ryat,


Quoting UnleashedElf,

I think RagnorakEviscerator is one of his alter accounts? Who else?



Hmm lets see. Hydraling, Stilat, ratburn (on Steam forums - banned), and one or two others IIRC.

 

That's quite a few accounts for a single person. Is HummerX another?

 

Quoting Sinkillr,

Don't believe me? Watch the skilled replays in that red ruby thread... You can see it live right there...

 

At the moment, I don't believe much you have to say - period, unless it's verified by someone credible.

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August 1, 2014 12:12:14 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Most of the bans were due to criticism of Stardock, not trolling... I probably have the most credibility of anyone in this thread (although some may beg to differ) considering I have by far the most MP experience and skill... On the other hand, you have no credibility, no MP experience, and still have not said whether you can beat hard AI... and you wonder why people don't take you seriously? Its embarrassing that this semi-troll thread has gone on for this long... Ryat would be proud...

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August 1, 2014 12:58:37 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting UnleashedElf,

That's quite a few accounts for a single person. Is HummerX another?

Not sure. Wouldn't surprise me.

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August 1, 2014 1:04:00 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,

Its embarrassing that this semi-troll thread has gone on for this long... Ryat would be proud...

You are right. It is a troll thread. Just for you.

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August 1, 2014 1:34:21 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well....I've never actually seen Hummer and Sinkillr in the same game on ICO, but they are separate steam accounts...

And lets face it, does Sinkillr really strike you as the type of person to own two steam accounts?

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August 1, 2014 2:11:39 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Whoa, you got me there... of course Hummer is my alt account... thats why sinkillr hasnt seen much play lately...

But how would you know that, considering you've never played MP and instead spend all your time playing some dumb Paradox game?


And you know the other guy's argument is nonsensical when he keeps ignoring your points and launches personal attacks. Hmm, I might start a "How to Argue" guide soon... some of the crap I've seen lately wouldn't pass a HS freshman class...


And LOL Ryat... you accuse me of holding multiple accounts? How can you say that without the hypocrisy exploding your head? You have been caught red handed trolling not just this forum, but the steam one as well. Full list of Ryat's alts- Timmauigh, WOEaintME,  Unikraken, usurper, Ue_Carbon, Draakjacht, uncrustable... hell, there are so many I cant keep track!! Its almost like when you cutt off one head, two more rises to take its place.

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August 1, 2014 2:14:07 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Triple

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August 1, 2014 2:23:01 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Triple

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August 1, 2014 3:15:21 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,

Triple

 

Half life 3 confirmed?

Sinkillr is a Steam employee trolling us.

 

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August 1, 2014 7:59:20 AM from Sins of a Solar Empire Forums Sins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Sinkillr,

I do intend to spread my ignorance around like a badge of honor,  labeling all those who disagree with me as "trolls" and "morons".

Prior to this post there was only one person who said "troll(s)" that was not you (directly or quoted). No one but you has said "moron(s)". All that

Quoting Sinkillr,

credibility 
 whisked away in one fell swoop.

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