GalCiv AI discussion on GameDev.net

what are they saying?

I think the final game will speak for itself in terms of AI.

Given thta the AI has had to have its resources PENALIZED at most of the intelligence levels I think it's in pretty decent shape.

Multithreading helps because it allows the AI to calculate its strategy during the player's turn.

This is crucial because it gives the AI time to do a LOT more analysis than in most strategy games.

The reason why GalCiv's AI players are so good is because they are able to analyse strategies and make counter strategies for them. Most games AIs are strictly reactive. They don't have the time to put together a coordinated attack.

Hence, in most TBS what do you see? Individual units throwing themselves uselessly at your defenses while ignoring threats made to them from other players (particularly human players).

"Given thta the AI has had to have its resources PENALIZED at most of the intelligence levels"

Is this (ie. what the different intelligence levels exactly mean) described somewhere?

I would also like to know what the AI sees that the player doesn't.

In a nutshell, the AI has the map explored to start with but is affected by fog of war. So it knows where the yellow stars are and knows where galactic resources are. This is described in the game plot stuff in the manual and in the encyclopedia.

But an experienced player can easily overcome that advantage since a scout, and the survey ship can scout out everything you'd need while you crank out colony shipos and constructors.

I don't know how many of you looked at the discussion in the thread that simdream pointed to, but there seems to be some missunderstanding, or just plain lack of knowledge, on the parts of the discussion participants. One is that GC is another war game in space, the other is that the AI learns from downloading metadata to the user's PC. Since I am not a member of that community (and have no desire to do so), it would be nice if someone that had posting priviledges to that forum could enlighten them. This is a "word of mouth" opportunity.

I think it really does not matter what the developers or Beta testers say.

To some people GC is really a rip off of existing games with nothing in it the least bit orginal, and what really bothers me the same people will say MOO3 is great with out playing that game either.


Maybe these guys are microsoft plants that have a grudge against Stardock because they once supported OS/2?

I rather doubt Microsoft is still holding a grudge against OS/2 vendors who are continuing to innovate on Windows.

"there seems to be some missunderstanding"

I re-read the thread and I don't think there is a lot of misunderstanding. They are mostly picking on the statement that the AI is good because it is multithreaded. I understand what Brad means by this but I too think that this is a silly thing to say. The AI doesn't get smarter because it is multithreaded, it just has more time to think. This sounds more like an argument:

"The reason why GalCiv's AI players are so good is because they are able to analyse strategies and make counter strategies for them."

And then you can say that it still doesn't make it too slow since it is multithreaded.

Btw, is this idea that the AI thinks while I am thinking a groundbreaking invention? Would be a bit of a surprise to me, but I'll believe you if you say so...

Invention? No, threads aren't an invention. But I am unaware of any turn based strategy games that make use of them like this.

Most games you hit the turn button and a dialog comes up or something telling you that the AI is thinking or making its turn. Since players won't tolerate waiting very long, the AI has to be kept fairly simple.

In GalCiv, the AI is allowed to be much more complex because players usually take at least a few seconds to make their turn and during that time the AI can calculate its strategy.

Obviously, if you sit there and wail on the turn button you will be greeted with an hour glass as the next turn won't start until the AI has finished. But in those late stage parts of the game when there's hundreds of ships and plaenets to deal with, that 10 seconds you spend moving is 10 seconds you won't have to wait when you hit the turn button.

A better way to look at it is like this:

The AI is good because the AI has a lot of time to build a strategy. The AI has a lot of time to build its strategy because it calculates most of it while the player is moving. The AI can calculate during the player's turn becaue it is multithreaded.

Does the AI always take all the time it needs to calculate the best actions or does it cut short if the user clicks the turn button before it is done.

Basically if I leave my PC on all night will the AI sit churning away at coming up for the absolute best strategy for the next move

Sith

It always takes the time it needs. It's just that if you hit th eturn button quickly you'll have to wait longer.

Multithreading (otherwise called such things as "time sharing" and "multiprocessing"), in the sense that a processor can share CPU time amongst several processes is over 30 years old (it originated on the IBM 360 operating systems in the mid 1960s). The term "multithreading" and the specific algorithms (more of a specialized application of timesharing or multiprocessing) has been around since OS/2 version 2 (or before?) for PCs (in 1990-1991). So, Delmar II, multithreading is not all that new.

But, as Brad points out, the use of multithreading by an AI on a PC was totally unknown when Brad first used it for GC/OS2 in 1994. That was before Win/95, which was, I believe, the first Windows level to introduce multithreading, and since there were other robust games for OS/2, and Windows had no multithreading at the time, the first use of multithreading must have been GC/OS2. That makes its use about 9 years old.

i just read the thread and when they understood waht the mulitthreading was used for they were somewhat impressed. They still don't ubderstand about the metaverse tho.

"They still don't ubderstand about the metaverse tho."

So let's explain it! (At least here, so that I understand. )

The galciv encyclopedia (top left button above the forum) now has two documents that describe the metaverse, the "Galciv user's manual", and the "Galciv general guide".

The description in the "Galciv user's manual" says exactly what those people in the GameDev.net thread said. Or doesn't it?

Both of the documents say it. I have not seen this happen yet, but maybe we will in 1.0. There is a button on the startup panel that I don't know what it is used for as yet, labeled "metaverse". Hmmm.

click on it and it takes you to the internet page for the metaverse. But when i read that forum they didn't understand the importance for teaching the a.i. from the best games by us useres. Which reseach projects we selected in what order, and wahat projects we built in what order.

There is a lot about this game that the uninitiated won't understand. But once they get into it, I think it is going to get a lot of attention.