Let's say you own 20 planets and decide to attack someone's choke point with 30 cap ships and 50 assorted frigates. This force costs around 115 000 credits to create.

The defender on the other hand has been preparing for you while you built up your fleet, but only has 17 planets worth of production/income. So, the defender fields instead a defensive force of 40 hangar platforms at the far side of the gravity well, 7 Phase Inhibitors spread out, 10 Gaus Canons at the Phase Lane exit point, 10 Flak Frigates, 30 medium frigates, 3 capital ships. This force costs around 63 500 credits to create (close to half of what the attacker spent).

So, which side do you think will prevail in this battle?

If you think the attacker will win, then all is well with the game. If you think the defender will win, then the game risks becoming trench warfare in space.

Frankly, that's probably close to a tossup, although the capital ship advantage *should* tip the balance. Once you got past the Gauss cannon they are fodder waiting for the mopup. The general attack odds that should carry the day is about 3-1 (based on my *ahem* years of gaming   ), and really on an entrenched enemy vs a frontal assault you would want 5-1.

(Not to pick on the example, but only 1.66 frigates to cap ships is waaaaay too few frigates - you would be better off with 20 cap ships and 75 more frigates [@ 400 ea]- and if you had scouted the system 1st and noticed all of the hangers you could have heavied up on the flak frigates)

Where the limiting factors on military might is going to have to come from is not only the cost of the forces, but also from the upkeep on them. If the upkeep in the later betas and final game is not limited to 75%, but in fact can go higher than 100%, then the results of negative cash flow and/or treasury balance will make economy of force the guiding principle of war instead of just mass of forces.

It is kinda close a battle isn't it....but wait. Look again. The defender is only spending close to half as much as the attacker. What happens if the defender decides to spend 80% on the same type of layout? Now the defender will probably win.

Then the combat odds (assuming that combat power, for purposes of this discussion, is proportional to cost) are only 1.25 to 1. And yes - I would expect the defender to win. Not without plenty of losses, and if the attack were focused the losses could be critical, but win overall nonetheless.

In truth, the actual odds would depend on the unit mix, but additionally, you would have to expect that the stationary units (including the hangers - stationary in this case meaning no phase drive) would have a relatively greater combat power to cost ratio than mobile (phase capable) units.

What this means is that the strengths (offense & defense) of the various units and the cost/strength ratios will need adjusting when balancing the game becomes the primary focus of development.

If the defender spends almost as much as the attacker on static defences, then the defender should win, at that planet. With 17 planets though, there will be other places that the attacker could bring his fleet to, and capture, because of the lack of defences at every other planet.

@Strat - With the lane system that may not be a possibility.

Just a thought... If the game is to contain chokepoints (which it seems it will) the defense structures shouldn't be too strong. The defender KNOWS where the attacker will attack so there is no element of surprise possible. What can I say, sadly one less strategy/tactics element. Anyway, if the defender knows where the attack will come and the defense structures are too strong turtling becomes the only option and games drag and drag because nobody wants to attack.

If there were no chokepoints (like the very promising SW mod) than the planet's fortifications should be strong enough (with some small ship addition) to repel a decent sized fleet. Because in this case the attacker can attack anywhere and the defender wouldn't stand a chance if static defences can't prevent the immediate downfall of the planet.

In short... the more "choked" map is, the weaker defences should be. And vice-versa.

I definitely do not like the decision of choked maps in Sins simply because they eliminate the element of surprise. There should always be more paths to attack another player so I hope these choke points won't choke the tactics completely. This is also why I promoted the anti-matter induced range of attack where the hyper jump would consume AM and only range limits the attack. This way the map is open, there is an element of surprise yet the attack isn't possible just anywhere. The defender can predict where stronger defences should be built.

In regards to the choke point discussion i have a suggestion, i apologize if this has been brought up or mentioned so if it has please let me know.

i do like the idea that systems are connected the way they are and that ships jump to a certain area within the gravity well but i do see the problem with taking a planet. It would be interesting if the defense platforms (maybe also hanger bays) orbit around the planet at their given distance when constructed. The closer they are to the planet the faster they orbit. So......you could either set up defenses close to the planet orbiting fast enough so they can come back into firing range or have them at the edge of where they can be built orbiting slowly which adds another layer of strategy deciding when to attack or where to build your defenses.

Having your guns built in close means you need fewer to cover the whole planet as they orbit quickly, having them far out means you risk having them on the other side of your planet when an attacking force jumps in unless you have built a massive amount of cannons.

having cannons close to the planet means it's cheaper to defend but allows a whole fleet to jump in before they attack, having them out far costs alot more to cover effectivly but allows you to catch them as they jump in.

What do you all think? I haven't thought a great deal about how much they would cost, if they should be expensive or cheap but i think it would add a nice dynamic to the game, or maybe to have it as an option for the more hardcore fans?

Sorry for the long post guys!

Cheers,

~Todd.

Just curious how hard it would be to make an exit to windows option when you hit Esc in game. As it is now I save my game minimize and then use the close option from windows. I don't want to see all the graphs when I'm just stopping for now.

Alt+Tab ?

Hmm don't remember if I use Alt-Tab or the windows start button on the key board. Doesn't really matter how I get it minimized just wish I didn't have to

@ 1Spartan - With 20 planets against 17, it would be a very rare map where there is only one border between the two players.

Choke point prevalence = 1/defense strength


at this point, a well defended empire of 10+ planets can usually reduce its choke points to 3 or 4, 20+ is usually 4 or 5, and it really doesnt get much more than that.

it sounds ok for a 1v1 game, but when most empires only share 1 or 2 phaselanes with you, it becomes an issue.

hear, hear.

its been proposed before, but why the devs didnt include it has not been discussed.

I'll just reitterate to be clear; in a 1v1 game, yeah that might not be the case. but in a game with many opponents its not as simple.

New idea for Ironclad to consider!

So far, the 'shield increasing damage negation' idea hasn't actually reduced reliance on focus fire...at all. Astax, in another post, put forward a good idea for helping further reduce the all-importance of focus fire tactics.

His idea was to give ships being hit by weapons fire a penalty to their accuracy (impacts would nudge the target ship, weapon hit flashes would distract targeting sensors). Combine this idea with the present shield system, and other tactics beyond focus fire might actually become feasible.

Editorial comment: OK there is now over 400 replies to this thread. Perhaps this thread should be closed and another one started? Maybe call it Gameplay Feedback 2 (beta build X.X.X) - just a suggestion...

Thats what the Sins Beta 2 - Gameplay Feedback post will be for!

In two weeks I am guessing the new BETA will be out...

I was thinking about this when playing... it doesnt seem to have much of an effect at all...

why? why would we do that?
its redundant...

wohoo!

I get that the 75% upkeep cap is designed to allow players to quickly rebuild fleet loses. Still, I think the upkeep system should be allowed to beyond 100%.

Using a steady building pace, once upkeep reaches 75%, it could take progressively longer to to increase the percentage. That would both allow players to quickly recuperate from serious loses, while also preventing infinite fleets.

the upkeep already needs to be tweaked anyway, it grows way too fast way too early in the game, it needs to be drastically cut.

I have to agree. It needs the mother of all hatchet cuts!!!

Regarding the discussion on chokepoints and stalemates using a phase-lane connection system, I think the issue can be easily resolved.

Major defensive positions could be neutralized using special weapons like a "super anti-matter bomb” or “super Ion Bomb” that you could launch into a phase-lane and explodes on the other side. Such a device would destroy or temporarily disable all enemy ships and defenses in a portion (25-50% of the enemy grav-well) while the attacker's fleet jumps in safely.

Other RTS games in the past have always included a "super weapon/nuke" that eliminates dense concentrations of enemy units/defenses. The only trick left would be in balancing such a device.

Cheers

That's a trick indeed...

So basically all fleets and platforms become next to useless. I somehow don't think Ironclad will go for this idea.

Paradoxnt, I would say you are not thinking outside the box. Terrans in Starcraft have nukes. Does this make all zerg and protoss units and defenses useless? Something tells me 10+ million Koreans that worship the game would say “no” and then lol.

Artillery bombardments are used in ground-based situations to soften up dense/well-defended targets. All you need is something similar to this for space.

I would venture a guess that the guys at Ironclad already have units/weapons/ideas like this that are currently disabled and we will see them in Beta 3 or 4.

Cheers

I'm not in favor of the idea. It would simply be better to have a specialized shield ship that plays the roll of a sponge. Additionally once you add a range limitation to it, if it would get put in the game, people would simply move things beyond its range.