Paradoxnt Paradoxnt

Phase Highways in space is a bad game concept!

▼

Phase Highways in space is a bad game concept!

from Sins Forums
I really don't like the beta's Phase Highway system. There should be no artificially forced space highways in the game. Okay, I've said it. My friends and I were really hoping that this game would use a less constricting movement system more like MOO or Rebellion for traveling between gravity wells.

The Phase Highway concept has been bugging me since I've started playing the beta. I've been quiet about it till now (mostly) because the beta has a lot of potential in other areas. But if we don't say anything about the Phase Highways now, they will be guaranteed to be included in the final release.

Also, these developers really want to hear us. They don't want us to say "yeah, the beta is just awesome" but then we don't buy the final release because we don't like it.

Games like Space Empires and Empires at War have their own versions of Phase Highways. The problem is that they kind of suck because of it. The concept of Phase Highways has been done to death in past games. Modders especially complain about them (check out the recent modding posts in the Space Empire Forums), because forcing players to use space highways mean that they can't make proper mods for Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, and so on.

By getting rid of Phase Highway limitations, SoaSE will be purchased by ALL of the space modders out there. I know for a fact that the talented Evillejedi from the Homeworld 2 Star Wars mod is keeping his eye on SoaSE to see if it has any potential. The game would also see a serious increase of its shelf life because of all of the modding potential made possible.

The Phase Highway concept is used because game designers think that players need short term goals in order not to get bored/discouraged. They also think that the average player's intelligence can't handle too many choices at once. They really should acknowledgment that SciFi gamers are smarter than other gamers and that we would welcome more choice and potential. Besides, players can still choose to play on small maps if they want.

Let's briefly examine how the game could work without using any Phase Highways and instead allowed ships to travel wherever they wanted to go. Of course, Phase Space itself should still be the means of traveling between gravity wells as it is a good game concept.


-To see the other destination gravity wells in your home star system, Astronomy could become a researchable technology. The higher the level you have in Astronomy, the further your planets/asteroids/ships could see possible gravity well destinations.

-Allies should share gravity well destination points. Hmmm, maybe you could even sell/buy gravity well destination points in the trade menu.

-Stars should probably always be valid destination points regardless of your Astronomy Tech level, since they are so easy to see. Hmmm, you might make it so you have to jump to another star before you can initially see any of the planets in its orbit (somewhat realistic even).

-There should be an option to turn off Astronomy and allow players to see all planets/asteroids. Players would then be able to jump to whatever destination they wanted right from the start. This would mostly be used by modders and professional multiplayers.

-Some people might worry that defensive strategies without Phase Lanes would become impossible. This simply isn't the case. With sensors (and audio warnings), you can be warned of incoming enemy fleets as the beta already does. Defending players should be able to see the destination point of the incoming fleet. If they are trying to reach your inner planets by bypassing your outer worlds, you'll be able to send a suitable intercept fleet to the contested system. Your fleet is going to be closer and so will arrive first. If certain ships can be equipped with Phase Space Inhibitors, that would prevent invading fleets from endlessly jumping around in your back lines. Of course, you could also build Phase Space Inhibitor platforms in your back lines as well to prevent leapfrogging hostile fleets.

*Modders should have the option of removing the long range warning sensors that show incoming enemy ships to help them build more accurate mods. Or possibly make them a research option.

-If people have trouble dealing with multiple incoming fleets...well, they realistically should have trouble sending interception fleets to deal with multiple attacking empires at once. Still, SoaSE has a good AI, and your ships can handle themselves while you are focusing elsewhere. So handling multiple incoming attackers at once won't be as fatal for you as it would be in other lesser games.

-I suppose that Phase Space travel speed could be slowed down a bit if players find they have trouble organizing multiple defense and attack fleets. You might even allow a research tech that messes with Phase Space and slows travel through it. Or your ships might be allowed to travel a bit faster when traveling in Phase Space inside your empire's borders (they would have a better grasp of local phase space conditions).

-Finally, if absolutely necessary, the distance ships can jump in Phase Space could be tied to a tech level. The higher the tech level, the further your ships can jump. I know you don't want to use Anti Matter as a limiter for Phase Space jumps, so I didn't bother mentioning a fuel range.

So, please remove the Phase Space Highways. They are standing between this game being a good game, and one of those all time great games that set the benchmark for years to come. Please tell me Blair that you guys are considering doing this.

Posters who've read this and agree with me, now is the time for you to speak up. They might be able to make a serious gameplay change like this now, but they won't be able to do it when the game nears release.
75,892 views 211 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top
Interesting, I preordered and will play my first beta game today in a few hours. I will do my best to be very serious about it and not to have any fun of course

So analysing the problem from what I have seen so far, if I understand, it is that free warping fleets can select from a large number of targets, confuse opponents and exhaust defence fleet's antimatter reserves by forcing them to dot about.

I think the obvious answer is to limit the range of phased jumps so you cannot reach that many targets from one location and have to be more judicious about using jump fuel*. Also it needs scanner range to be at least 2x superior to jump range so defenders can see the attack fleets at their pre-jump staging point and get a size estimate while they are in transit.

*I would have said another key to balancing out multipronged attacks would be longer recharge times and a home base advantage like for example limited planetary antimatter reserves so the defence fleet can recharge from the reserve in an emergency, while the attacking fleet cant and will have to wait to recharge and will probably be annihilated by a more mobile consolidated defence fleet.

Another possibility is phase beacons, which would allow friendlies to warp in much closer to the planet than attackers, to wherever the beacon was placed, giving them a crucial intercept time advantage.

Just some ideas.
Reply #52 from Sins Forums Top
I have little doubt that phase lanes are a bad idea. If we wanted to play a game with terrain, then wouldn't we want to play some thing that has land? The whole concept of space is that... well there is a lot of open space. You remove that and you have basically removed the whole concept of playing a game that takes place in space and thus removed the fun.

I also don't agree with the reasoning that you need terrain choke points for the game to be fun or playable. Consider this comment from Blair.

[quote}
3. Whack-a-mole. Necessary to maintain defenses and fleets at every location. Very frustrating. Reduces strategy to the Ender's Game model for offense.
[/quote]

While you will definitely need defenses, you don't necessary need a fleet everywhere. Planetary defenses should be very hard to bust through and relatively cheap and easy to build. If you want to warp past the front lines and try and hit a well developed planet deep in enemy territory, you should be free to try, but it should be a very expensive mission. A well developed planet should be very well fortified so the attacking fleet would have to be very large. Traveling so far from any kind of refueling station would only be possible by smaller ships so brining your bigger guns would be problematic. Further more, you'd be leaving your own front lines, which would consist of under developed easy to plunder planets, undefended. Even further, performing such an attack unnoticed would be difficult and your enemy could re-direct one of his own fleets to that planet and give you one heck of a welcome. (Note: with the concept of space lanes, re-directing a fleet in transit is not possible. This is another strategic element removed from the game).

It is a risk vs reward concept... like any good RTS.

I would argue that phase lanes remove a lot of strategy from the game. The game resorts to who can push the most ships through a lane. Wouldn't we rather have a game where you have to co-ordinate multiple fleets approaching a planet from multiple vectors where the first two fleets distract the planetary defenses and draw their fire and the third comes into low orbit to to take them out?

It seems that defenses in the game are too expensive and not nearly effective enough. Their effectiveness would have to be severely degraded to support the concept of space terrain. Which doesn't make sense since defenses don't need any kind of faster than light drive. All their power can be used for weaponry. Further, the planet itself can have defensive installations built over vast continents. Consider a nuclear missile launcher or the famous planetary ion cannon from the "Empire Strikes Back". With that much land available, I am sure one can come up with some pretty cool and effective defenses.


Fences - Organize your desktop icons today!
Reply #53 from Stardock Forums Top
Nice points Tholan
Reply #54 from Sins Forums Top
Hmmm, what would help balance open space would be getting rid of those easily destroyed planetary shield generators in space and instead giving a leveled up planet some automatic shield strength. You can relate the shield strength to the planet's level (1, 2 or 3).

This would also minimize small spoiler attacks to your backyard, because small fleets wouldn't be able to destroy planets and would only serve to tie up enemy ships in useless endeavors.

Also, the game mechanics could include upkeep reaching 100% of income, so you wouldn't have extra ships to toss around on useless spoiler attacks.
Reply #55 from Sins Forums Top
I have little doubt that phase lanes are a bad idea.


I personally disagree, though I see where you are coming from and I understand your thinking on the matter.

First of all I will say this, I agree with you in that I think space should be open. However, not in the way that you described, unless I misread your post. I believe that the current system to an extent is necessary for the sake of game play. The space you maneuver in is much to large, I feel that you would lose the idea of having a battlefront, where two huge forces clash, the forces wouldn’t clash, as they have so much room to maneuver. The only way that I see around it would be to allow you to build space stations and warp inhibitors in the space between planets that defended against a much larger area, in that way you could define borders to your empire, a bit like GalCiv2. Maybe have your buildable area be anywhere inside your ring of cultural influence which would extend out from your planets and press against opposing culture (now it really sounds like GalCiv). Otherwise I feel it would be too chaotic. And I feel that the changes above are too large at this point and that it wouldn't be its own game, may have to be renamed, Galactic Civilations 3: RT4X

Some have mentioned the idea that jump gates could connect the planets, I like this idea as it gives an explanation as to why you can’t jump wherever you want to. Most space games use this mechanic to enforce borders and it has worked well. The game just needs something that explains this.

Now, where I do agree a bit with you, is that it should be possible for your ships to move outside the gravity well, and once they get outside of it they should move a bit faster. If you want to send your fleet on a 30 minute journey to attempt a surprise attack and bypass defenses then by all means do so. But you would have to get there without jump drives.
Reply #56 from Sins Forums Top
I have little doubt that phase lanes are a bad idea

the Devs have already pointed out that the other options aren't viable. why cant we just believe them?
While you will definitely need defenses, you don't necessary need a fleet everywhere. Planetary defenses should be very hard to bust through and relatively cheap and easy to build

then that would make breaking through impossible. thats too much, because if even a small fleet is assisting the defense (or is on its way) then the attacker is "sexually intercoursed" (just thought I'd make up my own sensor   )
Note: with the concept of space lanes, re-directing a fleet in transit is not possible. This is another strategic element removed from the game

something many people vied for. be careful before you jump.
in that way you could define borders to your empire, a bit like GalCiv2. Maybe have your buildable area be anywhere inside your ring of cultural influence which would extend out from your planets and press against opposing culture (now it really sounds like GalCiv).

no... this would ruin any usefulness of a blitzkrieg battlestyle. one of my personal favorites
Now, where I do agree a bit with you, is that it should be possible for your ships to move outside the gravity well, and once they get outside of it they should move a bit faster. If you want to send your fleet on a 30 minute journey to attempt a surprise attack and bypass defenses then by all means do so. But you would have to get there without jump drives.

this I do like...
Reply #57 from Sins Forums Top
in that way you could define borders to your empire, a bit like GalCiv2. Maybe have your buildable area be anywhere inside your ring of cultural influence which would extend out from your planets and press against opposing culture (now it really sounds like GalCiv).


no... this would ruin any usefulness of a blitzkrieg battlestyle. one of my personal favorites


Agreed, that is not the game I am looking for with Sins.
Reply #58 from Sins Forums Top
I think my comment "I have little doubt that phase lanes are a bad idea" was taking a little out of context. To be more clear, I think that trying to mimic terrain chokes points found in land based RTSs is a bad idea. This seems to be the primary purpose for phase lanes, which is why I made that comment. You can still have the concept of phase lanes in a space game, as long as it is not meant to try and recreate a land based RTS environment.

The bottom line really comes down to how a game that takes place in "space" is defined. The concept of "terrain" in space is far far different that what we see on land. Putting in space lanes to try and mimic this behavior takes away the whole concept of being in space. I would argue that if this isn't the kind of game you are looking for, then are you really looking for a "space" RTS in the first place?

You can still have terrain, but it just needs to be terrain that you can actually find in space. Like black holes, nebulae, asteroid fields, and the like. They should never be AS limiting as a land based RTS but they would provide ways to restrict fleet movement. It also opens up many more strategic possibilities. For instance, hiding a fleet in a nebulae because it disrupts sensors.


then that would make breaking through impossible. thats too much, because if even a small fleet is assisting the defense (or is on its way) then the attacker is "sexually intercoursed" (just thought I'd make up my own sensor )


Your taking it too far. It would make breaking through impossible if space lanes were the only method of traveling. Defenses should be relatively cheap but not for free and have different effectiveness against different ship types. All you need to do is offset the additional defensive bonus you get from having only space lanes. With this restriction removed, the difficulty of defending the planet should be the same. This is done by adjusting the cost, effectiveness and upkeep of defensive installations.

From how I have read everyone's comments (and correct me if I am wrong here) it seems most people are in favor of free movement. How effective that movement is, I think is the point of contention. For example, I would envision a fleet moving outside of a phase lane would travel at 1/2 the speed and cost twice the amount of fuel. Of course that fleet has the advantage of having 100% free movement.
Reply #59 from Stardock Forums Top
But even when this game is set in space, the units and things move/are set on a 2D plane. Kinda like a traditional strategy game.

You don't see KoH, AoE, WC, or Civ having city to city travel only on roads, you get a myriad of different terrains. Some which may naturally block you from travelling through.

For some games. there is some degree of 'funnelling' the routes you can take, but the way they do it atleast looks natural. e.g. "a mountain is in my way, we must go around!"
If we could implement this sort of mindset in Sins, then we'll have a true kind of space game where we get to do spacey things we've wanted from watching those scifi shows. Hide a fleet in a nebulae, for example. Lure an enemy ship near a blackhole and have them crushed. Crazy kind of space things! At the moment the only 'strategy' it seems this game will have is, more ships = victory.

And so what if someone is going to try to attack some place DEEP in enemy territory. That's always going to be an amazingly huge risk. In any strategy game.

Was it the AI failing at moving in open space?
Reply #60 from Sins Forums Top

It's funny but 99% of space games be it in strategy MOO2,SpaceEmpires or simulations like X3,Freelancer,Eve have a spacelanes concept.I think gameplay has to take priority over realism of free movement.Ironclad have made it very clear this system is here to stay.


Very true. I was hoping that Sins would be different and go a bit further and actually depict space in a somewhat (not totally of course, but somewhat) realistic manner. If the system is here to stay, then the hype about being a genre defining game won't have nearly as much impact.
Reply #61 from Sins Forums Top
It's funny but 99% of space games be it in strategy MOO2,SpaceEmpires or simulations like X3,Freelancer,Eve have a spacelanes concept.I think gameplay has to take priority over realism of free movement.Ironclad have made it very clear this system is here to stay.
Reply #62 from Stardock Forums Top
IG 2 didn't need lanes!   
Reply #63 from Sins Forums Top
trajectories and accelerations are quite precise in space travel actually, but the interesting thing is they tend to be curved, not straight lines, that might be worth thinking about
Reply #64 from Sins Forums Top

Here's how I think of it:  Space is huge. I mean really huge. At sublight speeds it would take forever to get anywhere (I mean, it takes years just to get from Earth to Jupiter).  But we have this problem in that you can't go faster than the speed of light in normal space.  However, there are areas of space that are different in that they're "weak" which are known as lagrange points.  At these points, you can punch into what's known as Phase Space - a sub-dimension where you can move faster than light. The lines you see in Sins represent those lagrange points, the areas where ships can punch into and exit out of Phase Space.

Now, in terms of gameplay, will tweaks be made to this system? Probably. Will they go away entirely, doubtful.

Reply #65 from Sins Forums Top

There shouldn't be any "choke points" in space.


I disagree.

I personally would prefer to stay with a system with limited travel, and the potential for strategic points.
Without the lanes, there is very little "terrain" to the map, which is a vital thing for strategy in an RTS.




I cannot agree with this statement on two points.

The first point is that, personally, I wish to play a game that replicates the potential strategical challenges of space supposing FTL travel. In other words I want to faced with complete 3 dimensional, or two dimensional strategical problems, with themselves are entireally dependant upon the origination of species, and upon the distribution of resources and habitable planets within solar systems.

This leads me onto my second point, 'terrain'. System and planet placement alone is enough to provide 'terrain' in any space RTS. The reasons for this being is these will define the distribution of enemy territories and forces, which above all else is the ultimate terrain in any RTS. Consequently removing free movement actually inhibits the player from being able to take advantage of specific 'terrain' developments, an example being an 1938 style Czechoslovakian 'wedge' of an empire that has expanded into this space left between spheres of influence, which can be surrounded and engulfed by one or multiple enemies.

A third point I feel is relevant is that these phase space lanes may be fundamentally impossible to remove from the game mechanics, as I have yet to come across any method of travel between solar bodies without one of these lanes already existing. Thus these lanes currently seem to be the sole method of linking solar objects, and that development of alternatives could be incredibly difficult. In this case I feel that the development team have perhaps made an error.

As a side note the inability to take the shortest travel route between two relatively close strategic points, especially between two planets in a solar system in a space RTS, seems ludicrous. An empire with the ability to produce pathways between two solar bodies is going to link two vital core planets within the same system as a matter of urgency, and any removal of this option through 'storyline' game mechanics such as lagrange points etc. also seems immensely flawed.
Reply #66 from Sins Forums Top

An empire with the ability to produce pathways between two solar bodies is going to link two vital core planets within the same system as a matter of urgency, and any removal of this option through 'storyline' game mechanics such as lagrange points etc. also seems immensely flawed.


They aren't created, they appear to be naturally occuring circumstances that can be taken advantage of to travel faster than light. So have lanes that don't go to the most convieneint planet is possibility. It could change though.
areas of space that are different in that they're "weak" which are known as lagrange points. At these points, you can punch into what's known as Phase Space - a sub-dimension where you can move faster than light.



Reply #67 from Sins Forums Top
Hi Steven Fraser, in your post you mention that Phase Highways can't be removed from the game. You are right, but you are missing the point of an open connected map.

In an open connected map, ALL gravity wells are connected with every other gravity well. This means you can go anywhere on the map at any time you want (can possibly be limited by tech research if you want).

Anyway, for modding purposes, there doesn't seem to be any technical obstacles to have an open connection map. I just hope we can mod all those phase lanes so they aren't visible.
Reply #68 from Sins Forums Top
But even when this game is set in space, the units and things move/are set on a 2D plane. Kinda like a traditional strategy game

this definately needs to be rectified. I dont like the 2-D setup, with the "but no, its TRUE 3-D!!!" excuse. this can easily be changed without creating a huge issue (take for example, galaxies that are parallel but on top of one another)
From how I have read everyone's comments (and correct me if I am wrong here) it seems most people are in favor of free movement.

I think we're split 1/2 and 1/2
it certainly isn't a decisive setup.
I would argue that if this isn't the kind of game you are looking for, then are you really looking for a "space" RTS in the first place?

I'm looking for a good game. and as the Devs have said, thats neigh impossible with open phasespace.
just wait for the mod, then we can see how bad it is.
Reply #69 from Sins Forums Top
I have to somewhat agree that the entire jump lane thing right now seems only annoying and adds little.

Choke points/frontlines dont exist as phase jump disruption is easily ignored by the short research tree, losses by defenses while powering up for the next jump can be ignored as they dont focus fire on intruders except for the first one to arrive, no biggy send out a dozen or two cheap scout frigs in the front.

Im curious what the next betas bring - the given points by Blair already pointed a few things out that make lanes very needed though - and fun, I just really hope we arent able to see the fun right now because this is beta1.
Reply #70 from Sins Forums Top
I guess I'll speak up on this issue here since I have done so on the SD forums.

Simply put I dont like them. I can see both sides of the argument clearly and they both have merits however I think removing or modifying the current system has more value for the simulation. For example using lanes would be great for auto trade routes there could even be tech options to increase the density of ships on a route.

For military ships it is just plain wrong. Moreover under the current system in my first game I put a line of 10 Gauze guns at each entry point and was able to waste or really cripple the AI every time it entered my GWs. In contrast when I entered the AI GWs the guns were never strategically placed and I often trashed the guns from behind to boot.

The argument made that added strategic choke points ads something does not wash with me in its current version and it does not work for the AI that is for sure. If choke points are to be built in then it should be in the forum of tech and or natural obstacles. Free travel based on some fuel range or tech system is surely the way for this to truly become a classic sim. I liked the old Stars! system a lot if anyone remembers that system and to be honest I half expected it to be in this for some reason.

Reply #71 from Stardock Forums Top
Yeah, Stars! was awesome.

I think maybe we did expect a bit too much from Sins, with the whole, "It's a new genre of RT4X!" business. But that's what expectations gets us.




Reply #72 from Sins Forums Top
Yes I remember Stars!, in fact I still play it. It has definitely got something with its tangible commodity approach that hasn't been bettered since.

I completely agree that I was intuiting/wanting the blue antimatter bar to be a crucial fuel factor in phase jumping. I think it is still being developed so hopefully it will make more sense later. I think its because the fuel economy doesnt work properly that spacelanes were needed to produce frontiers. If the fuel system worked better then space lanes would not be necessary. They are undesirable because they are a restriction that doesn't flow from the the economic model or simulated environment of the game, imposed in order to overcome an inadequacy in the balance of other game elements. AKA papering over the cracks. Last but not least it was used in MoO3 as an attempt to introduce more strategic depth, which it did not do. MoO1 had better strategy than MoO3 IMHO. MoO3 is the prime example of how devs expectations got the better of them, let alone the fanbase.

I would like to see all ships using antimatter for phase jumps as well as special functions, even small ships like the flak frigate. Range / efficiency are techable for sure but the possibility of transferring antimatter would add something to the game, either to share it equally so all ships can jump to the same range or to stockpile it in the vessels that need it to fight or escape etc. eg select group, hotkey to share; or select group, hotkey to transfer, right click target. This would include buildings like repair facility. Maybe they could be techs.

As for lanes, I agree with the point that restriction to indirect travel doesnt make sense, for instance last game there were three planets in a triangle and one of the lanes connecting them was absent so I had to do a dog leg through one low value system to get between two high value systems when you would have thought the mass or whatever would connect them.

Some related ideas, I also want to be able to move beyond the gravwell so my fleet is ready to jump. In fact I don't see why we should not be able to travel in slow mode all the way between planets, it should just take a long time (another unecessary restriction except for local ships like planet fighters and constructors). I would have said a better function for the inhibitor would be to extend the range of the gravwell by doubling, trebling, quadrupling the radius for enemies so that approaching fleets have to stop short and move in slowly. (We need to be able to click the text alerts to find location btw).

Reply #73 from Sins Forums Top
@boo - nicely said. I'm a big huge fan of Stars! I'm glad to see others here are old timers.

I so want this title to be a super deluxe version of Stars! mixed with MoO and Pax. To me that would be the ultimate 4x space sim game mechanics wise.
Reply #74 from Sins Forums Top

I'm looking for a good game. and as the Devs have said, thats neigh impossible with open phasespace.
just wait for the mod, then we can see how bad it is.

I think we can take it for granted that everyone is looking for a "good" game. And if it is neigh impossible to actually create a good space RTS that actually has open space in it, then I can't see much of a point in building a game that takes place in space. May as well have a land environment.

But I think a good space game can be made with true open space. Difficult, no doubt, but possible. Too difficult to do in a mod and I agree with you that any mods that try and do fully open space would be bad. This kind of thing needs to be designed in from the ground up.
Reply #75 from Sins Forums Top
Use the Moo 2 System:

Fuel tech determines how far you can travel.

Gates are a buildable structure which speed up travel between systems with gates built.

Warp inhibitors make warping to\near the planet take longer