Paradoxnt Paradoxnt

Phase Highways in space is a bad game concept!

Phase Highways in space is a bad game concept!

I really don't like the beta's Phase Highway system. There should be no artificially forced space highways in the game. Okay, I've said it. My friends and I were really hoping that this game would use a less constricting movement system more like MOO or Rebellion for traveling between gravity wells.

The Phase Highway concept has been bugging me since I've started playing the beta. I've been quiet about it till now (mostly) because the beta has a lot of potential in other areas. But if we don't say anything about the Phase Highways now, they will be guaranteed to be included in the final release.

Also, these developers really want to hear us. They don't want us to say "yeah, the beta is just awesome" but then we don't buy the final release because we don't like it.

Games like Space Empires and Empires at War have their own versions of Phase Highways. The problem is that they kind of suck because of it. The concept of Phase Highways has been done to death in past games. Modders especially complain about them (check out the recent modding posts in the Space Empire Forums), because forcing players to use space highways mean that they can't make proper mods for Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, and so on.

By getting rid of Phase Highway limitations, SoaSE will be purchased by ALL of the space modders out there. I know for a fact that the talented Evillejedi from the Homeworld 2 Star Wars mod is keeping his eye on SoaSE to see if it has any potential. The game would also see a serious increase of its shelf life because of all of the modding potential made possible.

The Phase Highway concept is used because game designers think that players need short term goals in order not to get bored/discouraged. They also think that the average player's intelligence can't handle too many choices at once. They really should acknowledgment that SciFi gamers are smarter than other gamers and that we would welcome more choice and potential. Besides, players can still choose to play on small maps if they want.

Let's briefly examine how the game could work without using any Phase Highways and instead allowed ships to travel wherever they wanted to go. Of course, Phase Space itself should still be the means of traveling between gravity wells as it is a good game concept.


-To see the other destination gravity wells in your home star system, Astronomy could become a researchable technology. The higher the level you have in Astronomy, the further your planets/asteroids/ships could see possible gravity well destinations.

-Allies should share gravity well destination points. Hmmm, maybe you could even sell/buy gravity well destination points in the trade menu.

-Stars should probably always be valid destination points regardless of your Astronomy Tech level, since they are so easy to see. Hmmm, you might make it so you have to jump to another star before you can initially see any of the planets in its orbit (somewhat realistic even).

-There should be an option to turn off Astronomy and allow players to see all planets/asteroids. Players would then be able to jump to whatever destination they wanted right from the start. This would mostly be used by modders and professional multiplayers.

-Some people might worry that defensive strategies without Phase Lanes would become impossible. This simply isn't the case. With sensors (and audio warnings), you can be warned of incoming enemy fleets as the beta already does. Defending players should be able to see the destination point of the incoming fleet. If they are trying to reach your inner planets by bypassing your outer worlds, you'll be able to send a suitable intercept fleet to the contested system. Your fleet is going to be closer and so will arrive first. If certain ships can be equipped with Phase Space Inhibitors, that would prevent invading fleets from endlessly jumping around in your back lines. Of course, you could also build Phase Space Inhibitor platforms in your back lines as well to prevent leapfrogging hostile fleets.

*Modders should have the option of removing the long range warning sensors that show incoming enemy ships to help them build more accurate mods. Or possibly make them a research option.

-If people have trouble dealing with multiple incoming fleets...well, they realistically should have trouble sending interception fleets to deal with multiple attacking empires at once. Still, SoaSE has a good AI, and your ships can handle themselves while you are focusing elsewhere. So handling multiple incoming attackers at once won't be as fatal for you as it would be in other lesser games.

-I suppose that Phase Space travel speed could be slowed down a bit if players find they have trouble organizing multiple defense and attack fleets. You might even allow a research tech that messes with Phase Space and slows travel through it. Or your ships might be allowed to travel a bit faster when traveling in Phase Space inside your empire's borders (they would have a better grasp of local phase space conditions).

-Finally, if absolutely necessary, the distance ships can jump in Phase Space could be tied to a tech level. The higher the tech level, the further your ships can jump. I know you don't want to use Anti Matter as a limiter for Phase Space jumps, so I didn't bother mentioning a fuel range.

So, please remove the Phase Space Highways. They are standing between this game being a good game, and one of those all time great games that set the benchmark for years to come. Please tell me Blair that you guys are considering doing this.

Posters who've read this and agree with me, now is the time for you to speak up. They might be able to make a serious gameplay change like this now, but they won't be able to do it when the game nears release.
75,926 views 211 replies
Reply #151 Top
It would slow down the game significantly if you apply this principle to every systems. If you apply it only to fleets entering *hostile* systems, I think it's bearable, but highly artificial :\
I wasn't hostile to the phase lane principle in the first place but the more I play this beta, the more "the choke point+phase disruptor" argument looks bad to me.

Paradoxnt is right about the stalemate issue. Sooner or later, the game boils down to throw as much cannon fodder as possible at the über entranched 'choke point' hoping to get through the cracks. It would be a shame if the final game doesn't offer more than these caveman tactics.

I guess we'll have to wait for beta 2 to get a larger part of the big picture and make an opinion.
Reply #152 Top
That's where tactics come in, you throw a heavy handed and armored assault against the entrenched forces to tie them up, THEN you jump in a smaller fast attack force to slide around the gravity well, pop their jump inhibitors (it doesnt have recharging shields afterall) and then bounce your main assault force right through.

That could be a very valid tactic when fighting against entrenched enemy. The AI has done it to me (albeit on accident)on several occasions, where my defenders get tied up with dreads carriers and battleships while a few scouts or heavy gunships sneak around and blow my inhibitor away.

I also agree, we should wait till beta Two before ANY changes are made to the core gameplay, this is a compatibility test after all. Use it as a chance to expand your playbook a little.
Reply #153 Top
@Firefox - I think you are missing the point or at least not looking at things with proper breadth and scope for the over all game dynamics and how such "tactics" can quickly reduce the "fun factor" that said restrictions have been implemented in the first to enhance. Without getting into a long digression that has been already made several times, the net effect of such a system and its highly limited tactics ultimately create a grinder model; which simply is not fun one iota in my opinion.

Frankly I dont think that is really want the developers want for this title. If it is so they there has been a big huge disconnect with the "promise and perils" of this title and the marketing department as well as the devs that are active in the community and I as well many others have fallen victim.
Reply #154 Top
Ok, i have looked at the system several ways, quite frankly the lane system is the most fun for me. I understand that for some people the open system i better but yet again, as you say, such hit and run and whack-a-mole tactics that would result will wear down the "fun factor" for the people who prefer ordered battlefields. I for one (and many of my friends who have played the beta on my computer) enjoy the way it is presented at the moment. Honestly i prefer having a clearly defined front line where i can pay attention and have some safe areas in the back.

I think the only way to please everyone would be to give an option at the start of a game, phaselanes, or no. Granted the AI would have a very hard time with such inconsistencies.

Or we could wait to see what the devs have in mind? Also, would it be hard to mod the game so every planet connects to every other with invisible phaselanes so you could have a fully connected play model?
Reply #155 Top
@Fire - the open system is already in the game from what we understand so we assume that it can be modded. Additionally, I'm not advocating a total open system mainly due to concerns about the AI. I am promoting a limited open system. One where there is free travel within the solar system but lane travel between stars. Such a system would provide you with "theater" level front lines, after you have of course secured the system.
Reply #156 Top
@1Spartan
Reallly late - but -

the open system is already in the game


I guess thats wrong.
What IC was talking about was the "fully connected" version which is (with a few graph-algorithms in mind) a horror considering complexity and jump destinations.

That means that every planet was reachable from every other planet (or their grav-wells) - compared to blind(if target region is unexplored) or aimed jumping to well defined locations (3d-coordinates).

To clarify: With my way of reading it, a jump a few lighthours above the "Northpole" of a star-system would not have worked in the initial version.

(But I might also be completely off)
Considering that the last post here is from quite some time ago, I'll not reinitiate the debate by throwing in my ideas I came up with when reading the full 4 pages of this thread,

so long
KD
Reply #157 Top
Considering that the last post here is from quite some time ago, I'll not reinitiate the debate by throwing in my ideas I came up with when reading the full 4 pages of this thread



chicken

Reply #158 Top
Well, the designers have mentioned that the 3 big reasons for Phase Lanes is that the AI is stronger with them and that players need strategic points on a map to reduce defense stress and encourage a sense of accomplishment/progress.

Many space games have an 'open connected' map system that is limited by fuel ranges. So player limitations and strategic map points could be created by using fuel ranges for Phase Jumping instead of fixed Phase Lanes. Unfortunately, I don't know if this would be any help for the AI.

But I would still have to agree with 1Spartan that the game would work best (and even make the most sense) IF Star to Star travel required Phase Lanes, but travel inside a star system was open connected. To reach stars that are even further away, additional levels of fuel range research should need to be done.
*Hmmm, if a player doesn't have the range to jump to a distant star system and wants to use an intermediate star to leap frog from, that player should have to hold at least 1 planet/asteroid in that intermediate star system (to act as a forward base).

Also, players should be alerted to any enemy Phase travel within a system that they have at least 1 planet/asteroid in and as long as they have researched some level of sensor tech. Players should also be alerted to enemy ships on route to their star system from another star if they've researched even higher levels of sensor tech.
Reply #159 Top
@KD - your understanding is correct regarding the jumping options as far as I perceive things. You should also feel free to post your ideas after all that is what the forums are for in the first place. Thus allowing the devs can cherry pick those ideas they best like for whatever reasons.

Plus Dan called you a chicken. Come-on, thems' fight'n words where I come from!

@Para - I have thought about it a lot and I can't think of a reasonable alternative system of travel that achieves the same benefits on several levels with a minimum amount of drawbacks (the AI functionality being primary the concern) than the limited star travel system we as well as a couple others are supporting (Need to think of a name for it).

I think it is a very elegant solution and one that should serve to strengthen the AIs capabilities both offensively and defensively. I'm not a programmer however so I may be wrong. But given I studied global modeling in grad school and given my understanding of decision science I'm willing to bet I/we are correct.

Unfortunately the devs have not commented on it yet. Additionally Frogboy is an expert AI programmer so I would like to here his opinion on the system.
Reply #160 Top
If the phase lanes were only between stars and interplanetary travel was freestyle, I would suggest that the number of planets per star system be reduced and the number of star systems increased.

This would not dramaticly change the initial expansion phase of the game - rather than clearing a path to the planetary system choke points and colonizing behind yourself, you would grab and fortify the interstellar "jump points" and then develop the system. Invaders would still have to fight their way past the blocking forces, but after this was done the defense of the system would be much harder than the current system.

One question: - would the interstellar model still allow jumping to any lane from any point outside the gravity well as is currently done, or would continuing travelers need to transverse the system to the appropriate end of the phase lane? (Are the 'Jump points' just incoming or are they outgoing, too)
Reply #161 Top
Hey 1Spartan, the 'Star to Star Phase Lanes/System Open Connection maps' type movement that we support does seem to offer something for everybody.

If this movement system is used, then perhaps we should reduce the number of usable planets/asteroids per system. This would help out the AI in dealing with conflicts in the open connected zones within star systems. This would also allow the game to include unusable gas giant planets, worthless asteroid belts, and so on...which would add a lot of depth and realism to the game.
Reply #162 Top
I have a question how the Phase Lane is used. Does it act like 2 portals, a ship enter from this side and after a while appears on the other side? Or it's actually a tunnel in which the ship travels through?


Since it can be interesting if it's the latter and a phase space interception is possible.
Reply #163 Top
The game only has 1 map. Players can focus on different parts of the map and zoom in and out.

That means that there are no portals. So, Phase Lanes are kinda like Space Highways where ships travel to and from gravity wells that are connected.

As it is, there is Phase Space Interdiction. Facilities can be built that stop enemy ships from leaving/escaping into these Phase Lanes.
Reply #164 Top

The game only has 1 map. Players can focus on different parts of the map and zoom in and out.

That means that there are no portals. So, Phase Lanes are kinda like Space Highways where ships travel to and from gravity wells that are connected.

As it is, there is Phase Space Interdiction. Facilities can be built that stop enemy ships from leaving/escaping into these Phase Lanes.


Hum, in a way this sounds a lot more flexible then the conventional method. BTW, is it like the Trade Lane system in Freelancer? (maybe minus the trade lane itself).




Reply #165 Top
Kinda, but once ships are on/in the Phase Lane, they can't be pulled out of it until they reach their destination gravity well. So, the massive voids between gravity wells don't really play a part in the game...but they are still there. Cool, eh?
Reply #166 Top
the key to an open map would be to limit the distance a ship could jump severly, hopefully so that the average number of planets connected would be 2-3 connections per planet.

also there would need to be planet clusters so that there is some sort of element to choke points.
Reply #167 Top

Kinda, but once ships are on/in the Phase Lane, they can't be pulled out of it until they reach their destination gravity well. So, the massive voids between gravity wells don't really play a part in the game...but they are still there. Cool, eh?



Oh, so by Phase Space interdiction you mean prevent a ship from entering Phase Space at all, rather then intercept it once it's already there? And what do you mean by preventing a ship from leaving Phase Space, means they can actually be locked in there?


Heh, if there is actual Phase Space interception and battle is allowed in phase space, that would be extra cool

Reply #168 Top
@Para - I'm all for reduction of functional stellar objects as it can only assist the AI with strategic planning and the useless objects will add a lot of immersion value in my opinion as well.

@Earth - I am strongly against any combat in phased space as it will muddle up the game mechanics as well as look pretty horrid in the current system. Moreover the AI will likely be unable to cope effectively with it. If it is allowed then you would in effect have full free space tactics.

@Schem - that is the most sound method. Additionally to the best of my knowledge all of us "free-spacers" support it. This is IF a full free movement system is the system selected when all is said and done. This is very unlikely at this point given the publicly voiced opinions of the developers however.
Reply #169 Top
what he said.
Heh, if there is actual Phase Space interception and battle is allowed in phase space, that would be extra cool

nope.
Reply #170 Top

@Earth - I am strongly against any combat in phased space as it will muddle up the game mechanics as well as look pretty horrid in the current system. Moreover the AI will likely be unable to cope effectively with it. If it is allowed then you would in effect have full free space tactics.




It's a random idea that pop up in my head since I'm still not clear on how the system work. So in effect the Space Phase is like a tunnel connect one sector to another right with the distance in between is rather for cosmetic?

If that's the case I don't think it allowed full free space tactics, since while you can commit combat outside of a sector you're still limited to the Space Phase route, or I'm getting the wrong impression how Phase Space work?




Reply #171 Top
@earth - they are visually "tunnels" but the engine seems to treats them as end points. As far as I can tell it basically removes the units from one point then adds them at the other point after a time interval. Thus allowing phased lane combat to happen would functionally be the same as combat anywhere [the ships can go]. The core premise of the phased lane system according to the devs was to restrict the choices the AI had to make regarding strategic and tactical planning.
Reply #172 Top
let me guess, something like the Hyberspace in Homeworld but you actually see the ship going through?
Reply #173 Top
Ha! Nobody calls me a chicken!

So here you go:

As I'm not yet(?) in the Beta, I'm gonna give a quick summary on what I base my ideas on - thats easier for you to point out errors... (in case you should find any *g*)

- Lanes: existant inter-system and intra-system; with more or less random layout but not fully connected

-Lane endpoints are where the realspace/phase space barrier is "thin" and easily breached

-AI is having an easier time working with reduced set of lanes;

-The alienrace *whatwasitcalledagain* needs a huge bunch of resources for the next leg to their final destination (wherever that would be)




Lanes do exist and can continue to exist - but more by common sense than game mechanics:
Imaging the first discovery of phase space all those years ago:
An extradimensional space, not open and straitforward like ours, but more in the sense of a maze of connected passages.
With this in mind, one could potentially get from any entry point to any exit-point (remember the thin barrier) for traveling, only that the length of traversed phase-space will greatly vary.
The early explorers and scientists managed to map those mazes to a certain dept, eventually coming up with the existant scheme of intra- and inter-system lanes (where of course inter-system routes through the maze take a lot longer... [and are certainly even less connected than the planets right?]
So this is how lanes (with their certain layout) came into existance - they were being charted.

What does this propose for game-logic? Not all lanes are visible right away, but rather after a little research a phase-space-mapper can actually detect sane routes (from a certain found entry-point).

To complete this image, research has had year after the phase-space discovery to actually force a way through the phase-space-maze (psm) thus enabling ships to go by sheer force anywhere you want in a defined amount of time. This of course requires to punch through walls in the psm, thus eating tons of energy - maybe in the amount of antimatter spent? [With higher research-counts this could eventually be lowered]

Exiting from such a forced psm journey can either be achieved by punching a hole through the realspace barrier - again by some force - or using a known point of weakness - ie a known end-point.

Of course this forced travel faces many hazards:
-imaging plotting a forced travel through unexplored space:
you'd only know the location of stars (you can see them and get good fixes on their locations) whereas planets (much like today) or even other hazzards remain unseen
- again, we travel by force on a strait route toward a star we have seen, but suddenly, due to our punch-a-hole-into-the-wall strategy we end up dropping out of phase-space due to a grav-well, and collide head on with an asteroid belt, or look right into the ready guns of our unknown neighbors or.... well I think you get the point.

[of course with some more research early-on detection might be possible, thus avoiding a sudden drop-out by changing the route]

What does this concept propose in game-wise logic?
1. keep the lanes as they are, with a sound ingame-logic
2. enable manyfold strategic elements by enabling freejumping
BUT at the cost of:
-immense energy requirements (or a llllloooooong traveltime ("navigating a maze"))
-when traveling uncharted space (or enemy space for that sake) risk unforseen drops (or pulls from the psm

3. the harvesting of resources the ... need have an ingame-explanation (envision them navigating the psm from on end of the galaxy to the other - they'd more than grow grey hair
4. giving the gates I've seen in the Devs' screenshots a meaning - ie enabling a way into psm at "not-so-easy-to-enter" points (or even building a permanent strait maze-route to whereever they should lead

5. give a state of fame to the early explorers of the psm - hail those who never came out (or at least not with us knowing of their whereabouts)




Hm this got rather long, but I kinda really got into it...
And please don't hold back with criticism, as long as it's not a "chicken" *g*
Cheers
Killerdog
(ah - whoever finds spelling or grammar mistakes may keep them, and no, english is not my mothertounge)


Strangely enough I could just copy-paste from a notepad without creating one huge "blob" of text without any formatting... hmhm

And either the preview is a pain*$)^** or html-posting always results in such HUGE spaces, sorry for that
EDIT 2: Preview really IS broken, fixing my post
Reply #174 Top
ok no more chicken but i got what i wanted
Reply #175 Top
Just to give some sort of insight on a "Phasespace Highway", it's not totally impossible for space travel. At least in sci-fi terms, it's highly plausible, and considering we cannot currently move faster than light it could be possible.
The basis for this argument is the concept of points in space that have certain focal points, through which to travel in, which is used in another sci-fi game called Freespace. In Freespace, there are "subspace nodes", which are focal points which allow subspace travel. They exist naturally and can survive for millions of years while others are only available for mere seconds. It's basically what allows wormhole formation, and without this it is extremely difficult to have faster than light travel. These nodes connect one point in space to another, which could explain the phase space system. While this may not do anything for gameplay purposes, to have people say that this is an unheard of thing having a "space highway" it's not completely impossible.
Another thing is Star Wars, which while they have free-roam of space they stick to certain highways and mapped space due to debris, asteroid fields, and other space anomolies. It may be possible to jump from one planet in SINS to another planet without a connection, but you'll have a high probablity of being vaporized by some piece of rock floating around unmapped space.