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RTS Battle Mechanics and Ships

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RTS Battle Mechanics and Ships

Let's brain storm together!

from Sins Forums

By now some of you have probably realize just how much power you have in the beta process. That this isn't some late stage marketing excercise. We (you guys and us) are helping make a game together.

So let's talk about battle mechanics in space.  How do we make them more fun? What do we have to work with that will be intuitive from a strategic point of view and enjoyable to make use of?

Let's start with ships (in no order):

ASSUMPTION #1: Swarming is bad, combined arms is good.

In my opinion, we need more ships in the game. I also think that the FLEET should be the key building block of your strategy. That is, the player who utilizes "combined arms" with their fleets should be able to do vastly better than the player who is just swarming.

ASSUMPTION #2: Fleets should work together as a single combined arms fighting force

In most RTSs I play, I select several units, hit Ctrl-# and the units are grouped. I then right-click wherever and they scatter.  If I hold down the right keys, I can get them to move as a single force.

I think in Sins, it should be the opposite. A fleet should move together as a single formation by default. I should be able to put together the right mixture of ships to counter my opponent's strategy and be able to right click on the other fleet and let them fight it out while I go work on another battle elsewhere if I want (sure, I *can* micro manage the battle but I shouldn't get much, if any, advantage to doing it IMO).

ASSUMPTION #3: The fleet mechanics should be logical and require no explaining

What I mean is that I shouldn't have to look at the manual or some strategy site to figure out how to put together a good fleet or counter to an enemy fleet. 

This means we have to work with things that are obvious on screen when it comes to ships.  So what can differentiate different ships:

  1. How fast they move.  A battleship might pack a powerful punch but move and turn very slowly for instance.
  2. Rate of fire.  Some ships might shoot lots of wimpy but constant shots. Others might shoot less often but more devastating shots.
  3. Range. Some ships might have long range shot capability while others can only shoot short-range.
  4. Accuracy. How often the ship hits its target can be based on the accuracy of the ship.

Based on thes 4 simple game mechanics, one can imagine how one could put together various kinds of ships that counter someone else's fleet.

For example, you could have a Targeting Frigate which improves the accuracy of ships in a given fleet (as long as it's relatively close).  You could have a ECM Frigate which decreases the accuracy of ships in a given fleet.  Ships that have a long range may be more depenedent on accuracy than shorter range (for obvious reasons). 

Another example, a fleet that is heavy with big slow but powerful ships might be more vulnerable to an attack by a fleet of more nimble ships and fighters.  But that fleet might be countered by putting in a few anti-fighter frigates in with the fleet.

What I'm referring to here isn't rock-paper-scissors per se since one doesn't completely counter the other. It's reduction or maginfication of effectiveness that we're talking about. 

IMO, the true tactical skill in the game is the person who relies on combined arms.  The guy who just cranks out tons of heavy frigates and tosses them at their enemy should get mowed down by the player with a more thoughtful strategy.

The key thing though is that I really think that the strategies in this game should be straight-forward and intuitive.  In one of my favorite recent games, Company of Heroes, the replayability comes from having so many strategic options. And the game only has a handful of units. 

What's your view?

 

68,197 views 239 replies
Reply #151 from Sins Forums Top
I diffenantly agree with alot of suggestions i have read so far i just have one i idea of my own.

I dont know if anyone has said this yet since i havent been able to read all 100 or so post but i think it would be interesting to have the ability to actualy block incoming projectiles with other ships to protect high valued captial ships. this idea would be a great way of indirectly making it usefull to actualy flank ur enemy. It would add a realy interesting element during fleet engagments. For example one of ur best most vetern dreadnuaghts is in real danger as it is the main focus of the enemy fleets fire seeing as how it is ur most important vessel. You in reasponse could actual move lets says a less valuble carrier that may not be as important in between the dreadnaught and the enemy fleet effectivly sheidling for a period of time. This could also make it reasonable to have a controled retreatd where u actauly have lesser ships provide cover as ur important ships attempt to get away. I think this could add a since of realism and stratigic importance as fleets attempt to actualy get into postion around other fleets for the advantage. THis will also make in my opnion formations much much more important then just a fancy way of arranging your ships. If there was one feature i would want to see in the game it would be this.
What does everyone else think and again iam sorry if someone alrdy mentioned this.
Reply #152 from Sins Forums Top
as far as I experienced it, this is exactly how it works.
the fleet arrangements is what makes fun and founds success.

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Reply #153 from Sins Forums Top
let me first point out that the game is (as of our beta) not in full 3-D. its like SotS (yuk) in which ships MAY go over/under one another if they collide, or they just go around. its kindof dissapointing (and we havent heard when/if it will be changed *glare*)
I dont know if anyone has said this yet since i havent been able to read all 100 or so post but i think it would be interesting to have the ability to actualy block incoming projectiles with other ships to protect high valued captial ships. this idea would be a great way of indirectly making it usefull to actualy flank ur enemy

I agree it would be nice, but as of yet the ships are too mobile and the battles too fluid to allow proper placement. HW that was viable, here it isnt.
as far as I experienced it, this is exactly how it works.

what? are you and I playing the same game?

the ships rarely stop moving, and they dont go to a pinpoint position where you tell them to. additionally they rarely stay put in one location anyhow

which brings up another point, I think there needs to be a button to determine the range at which a ship will move to get at an enemy, 100 meter movement, 1000 meter movement, no movement, stay within gravity well, chase through to other gravity wells etc.
Reply #154 from Sins Forums Top
which brings up another point, I think there needs to be a button to determine the range at which a ship will move to get at an enemy, 100 meter movement, 1000 meter movement, no movement, stay within gravity well, chase through to other gravity wells etc.



there is sort of

ships can protect the gravity well or protect a small area around where they are
Reply #155 from Sins Forums Top
as I've seen that "small area" ends up being over 1/2 the gravity well. thats not quite what I meant.
Reply #156 from Sins Forums Top
Combined arms....with you 100% there.

If anyone here has played ST:Armada II, you will know it was hugely disappointing. In Armada 1 all ships were critical to success and battleships were major forces to be reckoned with (and very crippling if they got destroyed). The possibilities for strategy were immense.

Armada II sent all that flying out the window. Ships became obsolete within minutes (and I can say I never used many of them)and all you had to do was churn out MASSES, inordinate amounts in fact, of battleships and swarm the enemy with them. Gone were the days when you needed anti fighter ships and artillery ships, Armada II was RTS dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

As much as I like Sins, it would be a crippling disappointment to be able to swarm my enemy with battleships without any real strategy underneath except number crunching. I want battles to be uncertain, where a guy with 1000 ships can be whipped by a guy with 5 ships (exaggeration   ) if the strategy is right.

Also if there are to be some super-weapons ships, they should be special, real special, economy smashingly special. Also, they should be hard, but not impossible to destroy (the opposite of the spore ships in GC2:DA, which a race will produce by the truckload and no matter how hard I try they just...won't...die (glares at Frogboy))
Reply #157 from Sins Forums Top
Personally, one of the things I think this game is missing is fleet formations. One such formation (a formation to protect your flag) could be like a bowl, with your flag in the middle. Any enemy ship that dared to go into the bowl to attack the flag would be in range of all the other ships and would sustain damage quickly.
Here is my (bad) drawing of what I mean.



This could add another level of stradegy to the game (and have not just LINES!!!! of ships).
Reply #158 from Sins Forums Top
The only problem with your bowl formation, Thrawn, is that it just makes it easier to pick away at the ships on the edges. (And yes, I know that wasn't the point of your post, I wholeheartedly agree with having better formations)
Reply #159 from Sins Forums Top
or...
just go around!
Reply #160 from Sins Forums Top
The only problem with your bowl formation, Thrawn, is that it just makes it easier to pick away at the ships on the edges. (And yes, I know that wasn't the point of your post, I wholeheartedly agree with having better formations)

Actually this bowl (half-sphere) could work as a close-in formation. I guess a half-bubble would be even better from a concentrate-fire-in-focus point of view ("the claw" fighter formation from HW is somewhat like that), but still. The bowl could let some ships have extra protection.

True that the edges are more vunerable yet it's hard to stretch your forces so much unless your fleet is even bigger.
Reply #161 from Sins Forums Top
Darn...never mind...what I was gonna say has already been said...I was too slow to the post button. Bravo Space Voyager, bravo.
Reply #162 from Sins Forums Top
The only problem with your bowl formation, Thrawn, is that it just makes it easier to pick away at the ships on the edges.


or...
just go around!



To Stratteggi: I said the point of this formation was to protect the flag (although they don't play that big of a role in the game. They should though.). To Schem: The bowl could expand, ships could break off to engage the "going around" ships, and going around takes time.

I actually got this particular formation from Walter Hunt's The Dark Wing. The enemy were suicidal, xenocidal, bird creatures and they were trying to do anything they could to destroy ships, especially the flags.
Reply #163 from Sins Forums Top
I actually got this particular formation from Walter Hunt's The Dark Wing. The enemy were suicidal, xenocidal, bird creatures and they were trying to do anything they could to destroy ships, especially the flags.


I believe that your namesake used something similar to this as well in "The Last Command"
Reply #164 from Sins Forums Top
To Schem: The bowl could expand, ships could break off to engage the "going around" ships, and going around takes time.

then any half-brained commander would take that opportunity to pierce your center, as your strategy would be compromised.

I'm assuming I have an equally sized force here
The enemy were suicidal, xenocidal, bird creatures and they were trying to do anything they could to destroy ships, especially the flags.

sounds fun.
*stares at parakeet*
hey, where did you get those fangs from...
Reply #165 from Sins Forums Top
any half-brained commander would take that opportunity to pierce your center, as your strategy would be compromised.

Well, a claw formation (which this is an expansion of) was used in airial combat only when they had: A - The element of surprise, B - A very tightly packed enemy or C - Superior numbers and didn't want survivors.

Needless to say, it wasn't used much.

Also, the Zor (if memory serves) are cool.

Still, this was about the use of formations in 3-d, not about bashing bad moves. (but please, don't bring back the battle ball)
Reply #166 from Sins Forums Top
Also, the Zor (if memory serves) are cool.




w00t!!! Someone else on these boards has read it!!!!! Yes, it is the Zor, with their god named esLi(did you read all 4 books or just the first one?).


esLi He'Yar!!! (I think thats the phrase.....)
Reply #167 from Sins Forums Top
Oh, not more bad strategy discussion, this is already bringing back memories of lordkosc's spinning ships.
Reply #168 from Sins Forums Top
Sry if i disturb the actual course of the discussion, but i have a simple question about the big bad heavy ships-battleships,carriers and so on.
Let us say that you, the reader of this post, are a ship designer.And you decide to build a cruiser.Good for you,i say.So u get to the drawing-board and start making the ugly ship wrecker.IT IS NOT LOGICAL IN ANY WAY TO BUILD A HUGE ******** SHIP AND LEAVE IT DEFENSELESS IN FRONT OF SOME LITTLE BOMBERS.I know, you say afterwards that this is a game that has to be balanced and must not have any supergoodforeverytingships.
And you, as always, have a good point.
I had a huge battle an hour ago and ,three of my bomber squadrons flew trough 12 capital ships until the capitals were all dust.I lost one bomber.That is not logical,rational and that is just plain ugly.
Look in every science-fiction movie,serial,book...look in the carriers of the present(they have SA missiles,gattling guns) and you see that any capital ship is well defended against fighters/bombers.
My solution would be simple.Give the capital ships their flak guns , but do not give them many of those;but there shoud be enough so that three bomber squadrons should not survive long time in a cluster of 12 CAPITAL SHIPS.


Btw.If you want a good example...you can look into NEXUS: THE JUPITER INCIDENT.Now those were some balanced ships.Those ships were real.And confronted with a swarm of bombers,they would loose...but loose gracefully with half the bombers gone in heavens.
Reply #169 from Sins Forums Top

Odds are you lost far more than one bomber in this engagement. Heck, my bombers get slaughtered by frigates!   All ships can target fighters and bombers already with their regular weapons - plus there's the Kol's special flak attack and the Flak Frigate whose sole purpose is to deal with this type of threat.  What you probably saw was that your carriers were replenishing the destroyed bombers faster than the enemy could deal with them. This may need to be balanced more if that's the case.

It's not obvious unless you have your camera zoomed in and locked on a squad (since the zoomed out icon doesn't change) that you're actually taking losses in bombers/fighters.

Reply #170 from Sins Forums Top
Yeah...guess i never thought from that point of view.But there were only capital ships standing there...i killed the frigates from the begining...the capitals must have jumped last.But even so, there is no excuse for this kind of thing.I mean, 12 capital ships and only three bomber squadrons.And they survived in there for allmost a minute.The capitals were tageting my capitals...but even so...i think there must be some weapon balancing in a capital ship.Some weapons for ship=> than frigates...and some exclusive flak weaponry.From what i played, those bombers in large numbers(mainly from carriers-the heavy fighter upgrade is realy good)clean half of ships before they even reach a main task force-so i think that it must be balanced in some way.The bombers seem to be well designed, in would not encourage drastic modifications on them, but i would give some exclusive flak to the capitals... i know that there are frigates and a good ability, but there is no excuse in letting a capital ship hunt fighters with its main guns.


Oh BTW I just finished a game...and i did a lot of experimenting.And about those capital ships...THEY DON'T FIRE at any fighters/bombers.NOT EVEN A SMALL DOT OF LASER.They just sit there,huge ships...being butchered by a squadronof bombers.I took all tipes of capitals...just to be sure.None of them fire at bombers with the exception of the battleship(with flak trait).
Reply #171 from Sins Forums Top
I've never seen that happen, but I do agree that bombers seem overpowered. Usually one spread of missiles and an enemy ship's shields are gone completely. Makes them incredibly lethal.
Reply #172 from Sins Forums Top
These are some really excellent ideas. I especially like the ideal of critical hits being able to damage or destroy specific systems. One thing that I would like to see is the ability to set the targeting priority of my ships. Basically you would select an enemy and hit a key and this would change how likely your ships are to target that particular enemy.
As an example:
you have a fleet with two destroyers, a carrier and a mixed group of scouts and flax frigates, the capital ships are lvl 4-6, so you also have 5-6 fighters and bombers. You send them to an enemy system that has 3-4 hanger and the same number of gauss cannons plus a destroyer and a similar number and composition of frigates. A quick assessment of the situation would led you to believe that the destroyer and the hangers are probably going to give you the most trouble. So, you would click on those and set the attack priority on them to high. Your fleet would then work together to destroy these targets first and then move on to the other less dangerous enemies.
Reply #173 from Sins Forums Top
Fighters can wipe out bombers. However, they are hard to get to target bomber squads in the most efficient way. Usually, you end up with a mess of fighters targetting each bomber squad in sequence.

What would be nice is a 'attack nearest bombers' command for all fighter squads.
Reply #174 from Sins Forums Top
DON'T FIRE at any fighters/bombers.NOT EVEN A SMALL DOT OF LASER.


i have seen them use their main guns on the bombers to little effect probable missed them
Reply #175 from Sins Forums Top

Bombers (and probably fighters too) have 100+ hit points. It can take several hits to destroy one unless they get tagged by a frigate or cap ship.