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Production explained - how various bonuses apply

Production explained - how various bonuses apply

Hi!
For quite some time I had an issue with planetary production: how it works and how it's actually charged. For testing I used recent DA 1.6 beta3. Here are the results. Please note the actual amount of production and research varies with the spending slider seting, and mil/soc/research sliders settings. All calculations seem to be rounded down. Basic method of output calculation is:
output = ( base production (factories, labs) * 
sum of buildings' bonuses (capitals, power plants...) +
points from focus +
points from asteroid mines )
*
sum of other bonuses (abilities, starbases...).


Research
- Research buildings give base research. Bonus tiles just add stated bonus to base research of building on that tile.
- Tech Capital, Omega Research Center and Research Coordination Center add stated percent of research to base research.
- Points from focus are added to base research.
- Player pays full amount of base research.
- Colonization event that enhances research, production-enhancing modules on starbases, mining research resources, initial race abilities and various technologies add stated percentage of bonus research to base research. Player pays only half of that bonus. The payment goes from treasury and is not visible on planet mgmt. screen.
- Research on planets with Extreme environments is not penalized.
- bug: planets with rings DO NOT give any research bonus. It is displayed in planet details, but not given.
- glitch: research pane shows only base research, not the actual one with bonuses.

Manufacturing
- Factories give base production. Bonus tiles just add their stated bonus to the base production of the building on that tile.
- Manufacturing Capital and various power plants add the stated percent of production to base production.
- The Artificial Slave Center (evil-only tech) adds 50% to base military production, bonus not shown anywhere.
- Production points from asteroid mines are added to base production. Points are calculated for each asteroid field separately and rounded down.
- Production points from focus are added to base production.
- If these production points are not used in social queue (unused social production), they are transferred to military queue.
- If this production is used, then the player pays full amount for it.
- Various other bonuses (the colonization event that enhances production, moon, production-enhancing modules on starbases, initial race abilities and various technologies) add their stated percentage of bonus production to base production. The player pays only half of that bonus. The payment is subtracted from the treasury and is not visible on the planet management screen.
- Excess military production (production over price of the ship - e.g. ship costs 40MP, planet produces 200MPs, so excess is 160MP) is lost, but player still PAYS for it.
- When a ship is bought on a planet, it will be available in the next turn. However all military production on that planet will be wasted (no new ship build, but player will still pay for that production).
- Production on planets with Extreme environments is penalized: if player knows only one half of the extreme tech, a planet's production is halved. If player doesn't have ANY knowledge of planet's environment (he invaded or bought the planet), factories and asteroid mines don't give any production (100% penality). BTW that's also the only penality that planet suffers - research, influence, taxes and pop growth are normal.

Focus
- When a player sets focus on research, that field takes 1/4 of base production from other two fields, and adds that amount to whatever it already has. After that it adds to the new amount all bonuses the planet and race has in that field.
- When a player sets focus on social or military production, that field takes 1/4 of base research and 1/2 from the other production field, and adds that amount to whatever it already has. After that it adds to the new amount all bonuses the planet and race has in that field.
- focus DOES NOT transfer the bonus from the Artificial Slave Center to other fields.
- focus transfers 1/4 production points from asteroid mines to research. Discovered by drriderin reply #37: "However the amount of point production from the mines is proportional to the combined military and social slider positions, with fractions rounded down, just as if they were factories. So there has to be SOME industrial production programmed in order for the mines to actually produce anything."
- on planets with penalities from extreme environments focus still transfers 1/4 of research points into production.
- glitch discovered by Dog of Justice: Tech Capital, Omega Research Center and Research Coordination Center DO NOT add more production points when focus is set on production.

BR, Iztok
46,405 views 39 replies
Reply #26 Top
Thanks for laying this out Iztok. I pretty much knew most of this, but it is nice to have it in one place.

Player pays full amount of BCs for each point.
Ug. Asteroids just keep getting worse. They take too long to upgrade, they don't provide enough points, AND you have to pay for it all? I don't bother with asteroids much... but still.

It's a good thing you start off with a free space miner so that you never have to spend any actual in game resources to be able to use asteroids. As long as you ignore researching any kind of space mining until after you don't need money anymore you can get around it.

When I used the all-labs strategy, the Tech Capital did NOT increase my focused production, even though according to this model it should. Can you check this?

Yes, I can confirm that. The same behaviour was with the Omega Research Center and Research Coordination Center - no bonus from them for focus on production. However the manufacturing capital and power plants do increase the amount of TPs in the research focus. I'd say you discovered another game glitch.

I don't think this is a game glitch but a balancing issue. I think the reason the tech capital doesn't work like the manufacturing capital is because one provides a +100% bonus, the other only a +33%. Where as the most production bonus you can get on a planet from buildings is only +63%, the bonus from buildings for tech on one planet can be +175%. If this was "fixed" it would make the all research strategy a lot more powerful.

- candy#1: excess military production (production over price of the ship - e.g. ship costs 40MP, planet produces 200MPs, so excess is 160MP) is LOST, but player still PAYS for it.

I knew this little tidbit as well, but you have me wondering something. Is excess military production that is redirected from social lost in the same way? That is say I'm running 1/99/0 on my sliders. On my planet I'm actually producing 2/198(redirected)/0 - all social projects are finished. On a turn I finish a ship that costs 1bc. Do I pay 2bc for that finished ship or 200bc??

Good work. Thanks again,
- Wyndstar
Reply #27 Top
Hi!
Do I pay 2bc for that finished ship or 200bc??

I can't check now, but what's lost is excess mil production. Redirected soc production is mil production. So I'm pretty sure 199BCs are paid and lost.

> the Tech Capital did NOT increase my focused production
I don't think this is a game glitch but a balancing issue. I think the reason the tech capital doesn't work like the manufacturing capital is because one provides a +100% bonus, the other only a +33%.

Yeah, but there's only one tech capital. And that research boosting building (25% bonus) is still worse as the latest power planet. Anyway I changed that "bug" to more broad statement.

BR, Iztok

Reply #28 Top
Hi!
Ug. Asteroids just keep getting worse. They take too long to upgrade, they don't provide enough points, AND you have to pay for it all? I don't bother with asteroids much... but still.

I just found out that some bonuses DO apply to asteroid fields:

Production points from asteroid mines are added after all other calculations are done, and are changed by the bonus (manuf. capital and power plant bonus excluded) the race has in appropriate field. The bonus is calculated for each asteroid field separately and rounded down. Distribution to mil/soc queue is done with sliders. Not used social production points from asteroid mines are all transferred to military queue. Player pays full amount of BCs for added production, and half for bonus production.

BR, Iztok
Reply #29 Top
Hmm i read all this and still Im not sure about one thing (Its probably explained just i didnt understand it lol!)

What does this all factory strategy mean regarding research? And exactly why is it onsidered better than all reserach strategy? (in temrs of research that is) Is unused hammers in military and social going towards research? What im not getting is how production/hammers can help research through focus?

So basically i can produce all factories and fuel the resarch through focus slider? (So that the factories result in increased production that again result in more reserach due to slider?) Hope i got this right now lol !

Cheers
Prito
Reply #30 Top
Hi!
What does this all factory strategy mean regarding research?

Check this thread: Labs, Factories, and Focus for more clarification, and the wyndstar's AAR Altarian Rebillion, where he pushed the all-labs to extreme.

What im not getting is how production/hammers can help research through focus?

Build on planet only factories and econ buildings. Have spending sliders set to x/x/0. Set production focus on most planets to research. 1/4 of factories' output will be used as research points.

So basically i can produce all factories and fuel the resarch through focus slider? (So that the factories result in increased production that again result in more reserach due to slider?) Hope i got this right now lol !

Yes, you got it right.
But you already know the basics. Why are you asking then?

BR, Iztok
Reply #31 Top
Ah thx alot for the reply!

I guess insecurity and the fact im a perfectionist led me to ask a question i already had a semi answer to! Just to confirm

And bought the game 3 days ago so im still fresh.. to put it mildly lol

Hmm i have one more question for you: you say slider on x/x/0 (iv just done reading all the pages you referred to), but arent you supposed to not have research on 0 so you can research something?

Cheers
Prito
Reply #32 Top
Hmm one more question heh. I think i might miss a vital information but dunno hehe:

You said slider on x/x/0 (i asume thats x mp x sp and 0tp) and production focus on most planets to research. I thought x/x/0 equaled production focus was not on research? (since its 0 i mean).

Somehow i suspect I have missed a really important thing there, but eh.. so much to learn and iv tried search function and read tons but still im abit puzzled 8)

Ah Eureka I found it out after some meddling in game! My error was not realizing that production focus and production slider was two different things!

Cheers
Prito
Reply #33 Top
Hi!
Bad news for you that play all-labs strategy: I just discovered that in game version DA 1.61 focus does NOT transfer production points from asteroid mines to research.

BR, Iztok
Reply #34 Top
Thank you for all the information!
Reply #35 Top
Iztok, et al,
I was just testing the same thing, and I got a slightly different result, although I understand how you reached the conclusion. Still bad for all-labs (me), though.

I used a Gigantic map, Tough, one placid opponent (Iconians) - really so I wouldn't run into them while testing. Created a custom race with lots of economic and population bene's, but NO social or military or research bonuses, and NO techs that gave soc, mil, or rsch bonuses. Changed the name of the homeworld in setup to New Iconia so there was no moon or rings (yeah, I know they don't really work, but still).

Sent the survey ship off on a wild goose chase so it wouldn't touch any research enhancing anomalies. Got the colonist out of the way. Set economy initially to all research, so there would be no labs or factories completed before I had asteroid income to look at. Set the research target to the longest lead time tech (very slow research) so no new tech would be completed during the early turns when I was testing.
Main production slider set to 100%.

Then I looked at the 100% research production just before the 1st asteroid mine was completed - 24 tps, from the CivCap, just as expected.
Changed to 100% Social - 24 mps, as expected.
Changed to 100% Military - 24 mps, as expected.
Checked the actual shields, hammers, beakers produced in each circumstance - 24, as expected.

Completed the asteroid mine.
Distance was such it was beaming in +4 mps.

Details screen indicated 24 tps, 28 mps. As expected.

100% research on the slider, no focus = 0 shields, 0 hammers, 24 beakers.
100% research on the slider, soc focus = 0 shields, 6 hammers, 18 beakers.
100% research on the slider, mil focus = 6 shields, 0 hammers, 18 beakers.

100% social on the slider, no focus = 0 shields, 28 hammers, 0 beakers.
100% social on the slider, mil focus = 14 shields, 14 shields, 0 beakers.
100% social on the slider, rsch focus = 0 shields, 21 hammers, 7 beakers.

100% military on slider, no focus = 28 shields, 0 hammers, 0 beakers.
100% military on slider, soc focus = 14 shields, 14 shields, 0 beakers.
100% military on slider, rsch focus = 21 shields, 0 hammers, 7 beakers.

50% research, 50% social on slider = 0 shields, 14 hammers, 12 beakers.

So what's happening is that asteroid mines supply additional manufacturing capacity (that's what mp's really are, not actual production), or maybe you could look at the asterod mine mp's as more 'raw materials'. The actual additional production from those extra mp's is controlled by the production % sliders, just as it is for all other mp's. The asteroid mines do not provide a free bonus of additional hammers or shields, just more 'potential' to turn into more hammers or shields.

Asteroid mp's are clearly added in and used for slider-proportional production before focus assignment of some production output.

Since the mine capacity does not increase research production, and has already been accounted for before focus occurs, technology sector output focused over to manufacturing sector is not increased by asterod mine resources. Not even the part that is focused over. (BIG NOTE for us 'all labs' guys here.)
However, since mine resources DO increase the total manufacturing sector output (before focus), some of that pumped-up output IS available for transfer to the technology sector.

BTW, I did check the results I was seeing against the charges to the treasury, with taxes adjusted so the treasury had zero income. Charges to the treasury were consistent with the production output I saw.


I have to admit that I did not do the numerous additional trials to see exactly how the various types of % bonuses may affect the focused and un-focused asteroid mining mp's. I believe you already have pretty clear evidence on that, however. As I understand it from your article above, the on-planet bonuses from tiles and buildings do not add to asteroid mp's, the off-planet and racial bonuses DO modify asteroid mps, and this calculation occurs separately for each asterod field and rounds down.

vr (and gratefully)
drrider



Reply #36 Top
For all "All Labs" players:

Despite what I have said above, there IS a way to use asteroids to enhance the "All Technology Sector" strategy.

That is to make it an "ALMOST All Technology Sector" strategy.

This works particularly well if you have an industry bonus tile on your homeworld.

When you are first building out your homeworld, build 1 factory, probably as the last build. Put it on the best industry bonus tile you have.

Now, whenever you need to accelerate a project completion in the early game (upgrades of all buildings, those first 6 freighters, an essential constructor to grab a resource, etc), you focus all available astroids on the homeworld, and switch for a few key game turns to 100% military or 100% social.

When you switch back to 100% research, you can do several turns without focus to catch up somewhat on lost research progress.

Later in the game, when you have more planets in various stages of development, this won't work very efficiently, but you may still find occasional use for it, especially in low density games. Alternatively, you can build over the one factory, and the asteroid mines will be fallow until you decide to flip your infrastructure.

Maybe in 1.7 or TA we will be able to orient asteroid resources onto the tech sector directly.

drrider

drrider
Reply #37 Top
- game version DA 1.61: focus does NOT transfer production points from asteroid mines to research.


Iztok,
v1.61: Focus WILL transfer production points from asteroid mines (which are essentially industrial sector assets) to research.

However the amount of point production from the mines is proportional to the combined military and social slider positions, with fractions rounded down, just as if they were factories. So there has to be SOME industrial production programmed in order for the mines to actually produce anything.

Then 1/4 of the total industrial production of/through the planet (including the asteroid production), rounded down, will get focused over to research. There has to be a pretty hefty combined military/social industrial sector slider setting for the additional points from the asteroid mines to be perceptible in a focus transfer to research.

Net result is that a 100% technology slider setting will see NO benefit from asteroid mines, even with focus on research. Likewise a 100% technology slider setting with focus on social or military would pick up no points from astroid mines. A 100% combined industrial sector slider setting, with focus over to research, would show a nice extra slice of points if there were several nearby mines in operation.

drrider
Reply #38 Top
Hi!
However the amount of point production from the mines is proportional to the combined military and social slider positions, with fractions rounded down, just as if they were factories. So there has to be SOME industrial production programmed in order for the mines to actually produce anything.

Thank you for clearing that up! Now you can see what comes out when one uses focus too much: he misses out-of-focus things.

I'll correct the OP.

BR, iztok
Reply #39 Top
Ya, well, I too was hoping for asteroid belts to be the secret weapon of the "factory-challenged, all tech" technocrats, but it is not to be.

At least not until the devs decide to activate those so-far-unusable alternate asteroid bases that are tucked into the html files.

drrider