LOTS of beta 2 suggestions

my contribution to this great game

First of all, the game has great potential, but it needs a lot of work to do.

First the interface. This is EXTREAMELY important for this game of this scale. Most of the time I feel lost because of the interface. I can effectively govern the empire even with the few planet and fields.

Here are my suggestions:

1) Zooming in should be to the point where the mouse pointer is located. This way, by zooming out and then in you can move very efficiently across the map. I know this due to Supreme Commander.
2) Make scrolling by press/hold and then move the mouse similar as it is done in MS word, or in games like Command & Conquer 3 (only in C&C3, it is right mouse button, not the middle one). It is important to make the speed of scrolling proportional to the mouse displacement, not the scroll itself, again check how MS word is working.
3) Make ships brighter. Make them using illumination to light up themselves. Like most of the skyscrapers in the night sky in modern cities are very noticeable over the dark night sky, because of all the lightning show they put on them.
4) Make the sky slightly darker. Too bright sky is bad for noticing ships and ship icons.
5) All ship and building icon should have black (or white) outline. When you select them, the outline can change from black to white (or from white to black). Right now visibility of the icon is horrible. It is difficult to recognize and see them.
6) The icons for all ships need to be more unique. The colonization ship icon is very good – the ship look very unique, but try finding a scout in the icons in the empire management (left of the screen). Do not afraid to put small symbols into the ship icons to help us to distinguish them. Put small black triangle into the scout ship icon and suddenly it is very unique and easy recognizable.
7) The bombers should look very different from fighters, and the number of bomber/fighter s in the icon should correspond to the number of ships that actually are in the squad at the moment.
8) Make all icon larger, (say 30%) that especially true for the management line on the left of the screen
9) When you select a ship, or group of ships, or a planet, the planet in the list on the left should be centered and expanded, if it was not expanded before. When you deselect everything, the planet should return to the previous state (collapsed or not)
10) In addition to the above item, I still miss a separate selection window. You can use the same window and the same format of data that appears on the right of the screen, when you hover mouse over the icons of the fleet in the empire management strip (left of the screen). It could work like this. You select some units – you see them in the right window. If you hover the mouse over the things that usually use that window, then the window will change to reflect that as it is right now. But when you stop hovering the mouse pointer over that fleet thing, then the window changes back to the selection. Also, you should be able to click on the line in that window to sub-select ships of that line.
11) Alternative to the above, the selection can be shown as a separate line in the empire management. But the similar ships need to be always collected under the same icon with the number of ships shown, independent of the other settings. This way you can quickly select the identical ships of your current selection. At the same time you can still do whatever you do right now under the planet in the empire management part
12) One of the items of the empire management screen should contain ALL ships, but again in collapsed fashion, i.e. all similar ships are under single icon. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT! I can’t say how often I needed to find that scout or that colonization ship, but I do not remember which system it is in, or if it survived at all. By having access to all ships under the same fleet, you can quickly find any ship.
That’s it for interface. To recap, 3 most important items are icon and ship visibility, ability to find any ships without clicking the planets one by one, and selection mechanics, including separate selection window.

As for the gameplay, I do not have a lot to say because it is difficult to judge the game dynamics with current interface, but here are few suggestions:

1) Fighters should not try to attack anyone but other fighters and bombers when the capital ships are under attack by those bombers. Only after that fighters should protect their own bombers from the enemy fighters and only after that attack the larger ships.
2) The bombers should be more deadly, but easier countered with fighters and some other specific anti-bomber ships. The idea is to create rock/scissors/paper system with capital ships/bomber/anti-bomber ships. Right now it is not that obvious that we have this system.
3) Pirates should have multiple level of difficulty, not just on and off
4) As it is right now, the longer you play, the more powerful pirates become, until I can’t fight them anymore and at the same time trying to something else.
5) I had problems reinforcing the fighter/bomber squads. Basically I expect once a new bomber/fighter is built, it should fly to its squad immediately. I have seen many times that I have to dock and release the squad during the fight to get the new bombers/fighters. Is it a bug?
6) I could not find the way to fly from one star system to another. Tutorials should explain how to do it. And BTW, how to explore other star systems?

That’s it for now. Again, good beginning!
Comments please?
13,604 views 28 replies
Reply #1 Top
5) All ship and building icon should have black (or white) outline. When you select them, the outline can change from black to white (or from white to black). Right now visibility of the icon is horrible. It is difficult to recognize and see them.


I agree with this, and its been suggested many times before, I personally am editing the Empire.tga file to add a white outline for all ships, so when you are zooms out they are more legible. Sadly its taking awhile, and I have yet to test it, stupid having to work to survive...
Reply #2 Top
1) Zooming in should be to the point where the mouse pointer is located. This way, by zooming out and then in you can move very efficiently across the map. I know this due to Supreme Commander.


Toggle the zoom-lock button by the MENU button at the top of the screen.
Reply #3 Top
For #1 in suggestions: there's a button at the top of the screen that changes the zoom setting from center of the screen to the mouse pointer.

For #6 in gameplay: research the 'long range phase jumps' technology in the Empire tree.
Reply #4 Top
my contribution to this great game

even after you read my thread warning you about this...
I think I'll create my own thread masterpiece, just because I've had enough of not having my comments noticed in favor of these random-comments-o'-mine threads.
1) Zooming in should be to the point where the mouse pointer is located. This way, by zooming out and then in you can move very efficiently across the map. I know this due to Supreme Commander.

already in game.
3) Make ships brighter. Make them using illumination to light up themselves. Like most of the skyscrapers in the night sky in modern cities are very noticeable over the dark night sky, because of all the lightning show they put on them.

I'd rather stick with the TEC current look, even their LRMS is a little too high-techy for them.
6) The icons for all ships need to be more unique. The colonization ship icon is very good – the ship look very unique, but try finding a scout in the icons in the empire management (left of the screen). Do not afraid to put small symbols into the ship icons to help us to distinguish them. Put small black triangle into the scout ship icon and suddenly it is very unique and easy recognizable.

you'll get used to the small differences, and personally, I prefer the ship shapes to having to decipher a bunch of moving polygons on my screen any day of the week, and then some.
8) Make all icon larger, (say 30%) that especially true for the management line on the left of the screen

no way, would make things FAR too large.
9) When you select a ship, or group of ships, or a planet, the planet in the list on the left should be centered and expanded, if it was not expanded before. When you deselect everything, the planet should return to the previous state (collapsed or not)

this is not a half bad idea.
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT! I can’t say how often I needed to find that scout or that colonization ship, but I do not remember which system it is in, or if it survived at all. By having access to all ships under the same fleet, you can quickly find any ship.

while I understand the idea, and it is definately needed for cap ships: how would you know which ship to look at in the list???
and what about the dozens of dozens of frigs?
1) Fighters should not try to attack anyone but other fighters and bombers when the capital ships are under attack by those bombers. Only after that fighters should protect their own bombers from the enemy fighters and only after that attack the larger ships.

agreed.
2) The bombers should be more deadly, but easier countered with fighters and some other specific anti-bomber ships. The idea is to create rock/scissors/paper system with capital ships/bomber/anti-bomber ships. Right now it is not that obvious that we have this system.

the bombers are already plenty deadly, trust me.
they do on the other hand need to be more susceptable to attack.
3) Pirates should have multiple level of difficulty, not just on and off

agreed
4) As it is right now, the longer you play, the more powerful pirates become, until I can’t fight them anymore and at the same time trying to something else.

I've had a completely different experience, they begin easy and get easier... the occasional raid is not that big of a deal.

perhaps I should play with the AI all on easy, see if the pirates get harder then.
5) I had problems reinforcing the fighter/bomber squads. Basically I expect once a new bomber/fighter is built, it should fly to its squad immediately. I have seen many times that I have to dock and release the squad during the fight to get the new bombers/fighters. Is it a bug?

never had such an issue, although I have had squads of fighters and light carriers paralyze themselves on me with absolutely no explanation.
Reply #5 Top
First of all, thanks for all replies.

even after you read my thread warning you about this...
I think I'll create my own thread masterpiece, just because I've had enough of not having my comments noticed in favor of these random-comments-o'-mine threads.

yep, and I encourage you to do this. I will gladly give my opinions on your suggestions.



you'll get used to the small differences, and personally, I prefer the ship shapes to having to decipher a bunch of moving polygons on my screen any day of the week, and then some.

Here I did not even suggest to make them polygons, just more unique shapes. Like shapes for buildings are very unique. I also suggesting to put small symbol inside "some" ships. For example ships that have primary role as carriers can have small symbol inside them, like dot or plus sign.

However, polygons are also not that bad for the shapes, unlike you think. Did you try Supreme Commander? It works there nicely.

PLUS, even if you will lean to recognize them, it is still difficult to find them out of bunch of very similar looking icons. I am not talking here just about recognition, but being able to find them fast at screen at quick glance. Small differences are bad for this.

while I understand the idea, and it is definately needed for cap ships: how would you know which ship to look at in the list???
and what about the dozens of dozens of frigs?

Here how it can work:
you want to find a particular capital ship. You look in the "all ships" strip and select that capital ship type. Then you see all of you ships in the selection section (see my other suggestions, this suggesting has to work in combination with "Selection window or strip" suggestion)

The selection section (be it implemented on the left side in empire management strip or on the right)should always show all the ships separately when single type is selected. All you need is tab through them, and press focus, to see where is the ship.

What also could be helpful, is if you press shift and hover mouse over particular ship icon in the selection or empire management strips, then it temporarily centers on that particular ship, and outline the particular planet in the empire management strip
Reply #6 Top
By the way, what do you guys think about adding selection window as I have described (or rather re-using the window which you see when you hover mouse pointer over fleet icons in empire management strip)?
Reply #7 Top
like dot or plus sign.

However, polygons are also not that bad for the shapes, unlike you think. Did you try Supreme Commander? It works there nicely.


The trouble is that the icons in Sins are rotated to indicate the direction the unit is facing, which would greatly reduce the impact and identifiability of any such changes, if not make the situation worse. A square could look identical to a diamond for instance, depending on facing. But even eliminating similar shapes, the rotation would just as quickly lead to icon soup, which is worse with simple shapes than more complex ones IMO.
Reply #8 Top
Aye Kyro, that is the tip of the iceberg of the problems we found with basic shapes. The Supreme Commander system is almost exactly what we implemented at first (when we were building the engine that Sins would eventually run on and before it was even known that SupCom was in development) and it just didn't cut it but I'm all ears for ways to improve it
Reply #9 Top

Aye Kyro, that is the tip of the iceberg of the problems we found with basic shapes. The Supreme Commander system is almost exactly what we implemented at first (when we were building the engine that Sins would eventually run on and before it was even known that SupCom was in development) and it just didn't cut it but I'm all ears for ways to improve it


after playing with the images in the empires.tga file, I see the problems you were having, its hard to find something that looks right...

Maybe instead of individual ship icons you go to a fleet method similar to SOTS. That seems to work VERY well in space. And then just keep the trade and refinery ships as they are. That way if you mouse over a fleet in transit, you could get a report in the lower right corner of the ships in that fleet.

Sort of similar to the fleet reporting on the left top side of the screen when you make a control group.
Reply #10 Top
Do not turn this into SOTS or I and many others will probably lose interest. I hate SOTS, Homeworld Combat my ass!
Reply #11 Top
Do not turn this into SOTS or I and many others will probably lose interest.

You and your invisible friend? j/k

No matter what, sins will never be like another game, thats for sure
But if some other game, got some useful ideas, to make something easy, id say, why not use it
Reply #12 Top
I was just talking about the ICONS for the fleets in SOTS, not the gameplay, as that aspect of SOTS sucked...
Reply #13 Top
Good, was worried there for a sec lordkosc. Gameplay in SOTS was horrible, It felt like a never-ending auto resolve bore fest.
Reply #14 Top
Staying off topic, and continuing my SOTS bashing... I especially hated how every battle had a timer... What was that crap? Lol...
Reply #15 Top
I don't know lord. But what was with having to wait 3 patches for a crappy health bar? Or the fact that the randomized tech tree wasn't so random, or when it was you were screwed? And not knowing what random encounter hit your world until you committed to the battle? Most of the time it was asteroids and you usually regretted it. And battles became nothing but throwing the same shit at each other, and numbers were the only thing that came into play.
Reply #16 Top
I think I'll create my own thread masterpiece, just because I've had enough of not having my comments noticed in favor of these random-comments-o'-mine threads.


No need to scare the poor noobie, everyone has their opinions Schem.
Reply #17 Top
The Emperor has returned.
Reply #18 Top

The Emperor has returned.


Emperor to only a few =p

The mighty TEC still stand defiant against him!
Reply #19 Top
Aye Kyro, that is the tip of the iceberg of the problems we found with basic shapes. The Supreme Commander system is almost exactly what we implemented at first (when we were building the engine that Sins would eventually run on and before it was even known that SupCom was in development) and it just didn't cut it but I'm all ears for ways to improve it


OK, then forget about basic-shapes (I actually was not the one who brought it up in this thread) but at least make them more unique with much more differences and may be some signs (like "+", ".", "0", "*", triangle) inside the shape to make it easier to see. That and black borders.
Reply #20 Top
I am working on something that might be different, not better , but different than the current images, I still need a day or two to finish up the frigates...
Reply #21 Top
Most of the stuff you are suggesting is either already in the game or is a known bug (such as the fighters not making other strike craft their main priority). One thing that I do agree with though is that the marauders need to be toned down a bit, or at least let the player have the option to select how strong they are. In the last game I played the marauders came in such vast numbers that the AI was completely unable to function. The game simply became me vs. the pirate ships, as my large fleet (5 caps and 60+ frigates and cruisers) chased their large fleets (usually 40-80 frigates) around as they tried to raze my planets (which they were often very successful at despite maxed out planetary defences). While this did present an enjoyable challenge, It doesn't really seem to be the way the game should go.

edit: I almost forgot, I find it hard to believe that anyone could call the interface hard to use. I myself, am greatly impressed at how easy the good folks have made it to run a massive space empire in real-time. Just a few suggestions to people who are having trouble. Turn on the scroll to pointer option (it right next to the menu button at the top of the screen. Maybe this option should be on by default). There is also an option that makes the icons much brighter, I don't remember exactly what it's called, but it's somewher in the interface options. Also, turn icon stacking on, this makes it much easier to make sense of your fleets in the empire bar on the side. It's also pretty useful for getting certain types of ships to attack specific types of enemy ships, such as getting your gardaks to actually chase strike craft.
Reply #22 Top
One of the things that I do not like is when I want to check what ships are near particular planet, the logical way is to select everything near that planet. Guess what - there is no selection window, and if the planet is minimized in the empire management strip - you will not see anything at all!
Reply #23 Top

There is also an option that makes the icons much brighter, I don't remember exactly what it's called, but it's somewher in the interface options.

That's the Team Colors option. When it's on, the icons get brighter and your allies share the same icon color with you.

Reply #24 Top
One of the things that I do not like is when I want to check what ships are near particular planet, the logical way is to select everything near that planet. Guess what - there is no selection window, and if the planet is minimized in the empire management strip - you will not see anything at all!


Perhaps have a node at the top of the empire tree that shows the current selection?
Reply #25 Top
Perhaps you could use colors to make class differences clear?

For instance, make all icons with two colors. One as an outline, and one filling the ship icon itself. The filling color could be the team color (as it is now), but the outline could be a color variant depending on the type of ship (for instance, green for combat frigates; yellow for cruisers; red for caps; aqua for fighters; navy for bombers; etc.)

But perhaps this would make for confusing battles; I really don't know.