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Hi Info...

Just because the rapture takes place it doesn't mean total destruction for those left behind. As I go further into Revelation it will be seen that MANY will still come to Christ. God is a God of second, third and more chances. He's very patient but there will be a time when even God's patience runs out.

In 7:9 it shows us that a great multitude will still be saved even during the tribulation. The only difference is it's going to be pretty bad for a while but even then some will still make it intact and be standing when he comes back.

I think Tova said it well here. It's a decision we make and cannot make for another. The best thing a Christian can do is redeem the time now and not take this lightly. So we tell that neighbor and his wife or relative that you spoke of NOW. By then it will be too late and besides, we won't have a chance nor will we want to "stay behind." It's going to happen in the twinkling of an eye. Our desire is to go when he says....come!

Help them what? They are given the same opportunity I am given, they refuse the gift and the gift giver. How exactly am I going to help them? By suffering with them? That's helping? Or maybe forcing them to believe and accept something they don't believe or accept? (If I even could.)

Do you think there will be any place for Christian living once the body is gone?

You aren't one of those people who pray for Satan are you? Seriously, I have talked with people who believe Satan can be "turned around." So they pray God will negate his wrath against the evil one, forgive him, and take him back into the fold.

That's nuts if you also believe God knows all, including the future. He knows who will and won't accept the gift. Doesn't wanting to stay behind spit at the gift and also tell God He doesn't know what He's doing? Not to mention its so arrogant I can hardly read it without laughing....

"Oh yeah God. Sorry I don't wanna come. I know you can't sway these people with the Holy Spirit, or your blood, or your Word, or even your miracles, and even though you know the future and know they will never accept the gift, I wanna stay here and SAVE THEM MYSELF."

Get out the cross....

Being Christian is following Christ, not some mamby pamby good feeling thing. Who do you think is going to cast the unrepentant into the lake of fire? I guess Jesus isn't a good Christian either.

At the end of the day, we are each responsible to God for our lives. Who woulda thunk Jesus was all about personal responsibility?

Amazing.

that's a nice characteristic to have IG. You sound very compassionate. But there's only so much you can do. It's like trying to make a horse drink or a baby eat. If they are not in the mood,...ain't gonna happen.

That's why I said on my blog that nobody is going that doesn't want to go. The rapture is only for those IN Christ whether already dead or still alive.

Actually, God has that all taken care of. He's sealing 144,000 Jewish Christians for just that reason. They will preach and teach for those that will become converted during this time. Also there will be two witnesses that God will send who also will be able to continue the work.



believe me, I don't think we want to see this horror show. Would you have liked to be in the middle of Nazi Territory in say 1942 as a Jew? That's what it's going to be like for Christians during the Tribulation.

What's the Trinity Test?

Hi IG,

I know this is a rather old post but as this is a discussion.  It is one I started in 2007 and have since wondered how we came to have a 'belief of the end times' 

I know that a few years before I entered my first physical church, to celebrate being baptized/baptizo into the body of Christ.  Let me try in 'English'  :

I know that a few years ago before I entered the building commonly referred to as the church (with the steeple - actually there was no steeple) to celebrate my spiritual birth with others who I learned had been born of God too, I'd managed to assemble a 'belief of the end times' based on what I'd heard here and there. 

Of course, I got a version of a 'belief of the end times' from those who were doing the teaching and preaching in the church (with the steeple - actually there was no steeple) and from a few books that I've read over the years.

Between 1995 and this writing in 2007  'Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, dealing with Christian dispensationalist End Times: pretribulation, premillennial, Christian eschatological viewpoint of the end of the world. The primary conflict of the series is the members of the Tribulation Force against the Global Community and its leader Nicolae Carpathia—the Antichrist. Left Behind is also the title of the first book in the series. The series was first published 1995-2007 by Tyndale House, a firm with a history of interest indispensationalism.' ( From: Wikipedia Online Encyclopedia)

One last stanza and then I'll make my point.

During 2007, I went on a my first journey out of Africa and recorded on of a set of 10 songs with Randy Stonehill (one of the fathers of Christian Rock) titled 'The Last Train' 

Now this song pretty much reflects the view that I'd assembled up to then but have since learned that this view might possibly be seriously flawed.  I refer: Matthew 24 – DD’s new episodes (regularly updated)

It seems to me that the view of Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Armageddon and the 1000 years peace etc. referred to in the book of Revelation and the passages in Matthew, Mark and various other books in the Christian sacred texts might be more consistent with an Orthodox interpretation referred to as Preterism.

'Preterism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets prophecies of the Bible, especiallyDaniel and Revelation, as events which have already happened in the first century A.D. Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, which is listed in Webster's 1913 dictionary as a prefix denoting that something is "past" or "beyond," signifying that either all or a majority of Bible prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70. Adherents of preterism are commonly known as preterists.'  (From:  Wikipedia Online Encyclopedia)

 My own studies of the whole Bible have led me to conclude that there is not going to be a rapture (Edit Add: at least the way that some  pre-millennialists describe it) and that the coming of Jesus will coincide with and end time resurrection similar to that taught in the Old Testament.  I could surrender many verses in support of this but as I'm still in a bit of a puzzle, I'm just throwing this out there in case anyone has studied this in depth and can guide me out of the maze.

Peace,

Aeryck.

So, I'm 54 and thinking.  So what're your thoughts/beliefs about the rapture? (and end times)  I get that it's quite a modern development born out of the schismatics and combined with the anti-Orthodox position held by many Protestants has pretty much gone and developed into a frightening tale that is more an invention of bad exegesis than anything worth believing etc.

Peace,
Aeryck. 

'The Rapture doctrine, which was the invention of the Plymouth Brethren led by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), has today been adopted by most Baptist, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, and a variety of other fundamentalist sects. ....'  (The Rapture by Aristobulus (Roger) Allen

A preterist view doesn't explain everything that's indicated to have occured by Christ's return.

So this means you have to remove specific references that remain unfulfilled and say they "aren't relevant" (which opens up a whole deal about what the bible is for) or you have to generalize and smear the specificity to make them fit...redefine the whole idea of Christs return even as metaphor, etc., etc.

There are some very specific things mentioned in Daniel and Revelation that definitely haven't occurred. If these can be dismissed as allegory, so can the virgin birth, existence of Jesus, inspiration of scripture, interpretation of scripture, etc. etc.

The reason we have a holy spirit is to allow the bible to be more than academic, philosophical and historical literature.

A lot of scenarios popular in churches are very shaky speculations--but the general concept of a rapture/rescue is very plausible within scripture.

My thoughts on the Rapture coming up. 

 

Keith A Mathison author of "Postmillennial - Post Millennialism - An Eschatology of Hope wrote the following in response to a review of his book: 

 ’I don’t know that I would say of myself that I’ve “undergone some theological changes.” My interpretation of some individual texts has changed, but it hasn’t resulted in a major overhaul of my eschatology. I would consider it more of a refinement of some details. Regarding the terms “Amillennialism” and “Postmillennialism,” it is true that I’m far less concerned now about which of those terms people use to label my views. If that’s a major theological change, so be it.    I recall something that Donald Bloesch wrote, where he said (and I’m paraphrasing from memory here) that his view could be defined as postmillennialism within an amillennial framework. I’ve always thought that statement pretty well summed up my own position. I see the views as ranging along a spectrum. My understanding of postmillennialism is in that blurry part of the spectrum where some versions of amillennialism and some versions of postmillennialism overlap. That’s why it doesn’t concern me which label one uses to describe my views. The key point that seems to determine where one stands concerns how much visible manifestation in history there will be of the growth of the kingdom (which all sides grant). I’m a bit more optimistic about that question than someone like, say, Cornelis Venema, with whom I agree on a number of points. I still like the D-Day and V-Day analogy. The growth of the kingdom is comparable to the time between D-Day and V-Day. There’s progress towards victory, but it is a bloody and hardfought battle all the way until the end.’  (read the review)

 What is Amillennialism?

'Amillennialism (Latin: a- "no" + millennialism) is a view in Christian end-times theology named for its rejection of the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year long, physical reign on the earth. This is in opposition to premillennial and some postmillennial interpretations of chapter 20of the Book of Revelation.

In contrast, the amillennial view holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is asymbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age, (or more rarely, that it ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70— see Preterism). Amillennialism holds that while Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, at the end of the church age, Christ will return in final judgment and establish a permanent physical reign.'   From: Amillennialism @ Wikipedia Online Encyclopedia (read more)

Here's a discussion I had on the subject being somewhat undecided about this matter for a really long time:

WHY I AM NOT AN ORTHODOX PRETERIST YET by "headheart" < That's me!  ( Though I call myself a "Wiccan", it is only done as a protest against the Evangelical Christian shrapnel ( Wicca is an evil, demonic power thirsty faith. ) I incurred during an enquiry into the subject of "Witchcraft 'n Wicca" - something I have been researching for well over a decade having published a small but biased article in 2003 thereabouts simply titled "Witchcraft." ( there are several links to my ongoing research, here )

+)(+

I'm currently studying (being part mentored) a number of books by various authors and several excellent commentaries dealing with the problematic passages such as the few I referred to in reply 23 (below the video by D.D. Warren of PreterSite 100% Certified Heresy Free)  If you've not listened to her latest podcast dealing with Matthew 24:34 - It's About Time! as an ongoing exegesis of Matthew 24 (her commentary of the same at Pretersite) I recommend you give it a hard tonk! 

Peace,

Aeryck.

 

 

 

It's still very much a work in progress and I'm largely indecisive but I don't intend to sit on the fence and say something like 'I'm a Panmillennialist' and it'll all pan-out or reboot in the end.   

I think the bold section of the following quote pretty much summarizes my own thoughts thus far:

 A little more from:  The Rapture by Aristobolus (Roger) Allan:

"To be sure, there will be a catching away of the saints on earth but this happens at the last trumpet sound (Revelation 11:15). Writing to the Christians in Thessalonica, St. Paul tells us what the 2nd coming (Greek- parousia) is like. "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore, comfort one another with these words (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)". The same words are used here to describe the catching up of Christians as is used to describe the 2nd coming of the Lord. Both occur in the clouds, in the air, and everyone on earth sees it happen. In other words, the so-called Rapture and the 2nd coming of Christ will happen at the same time."  ( read more)

Peace,

Aeryck

Add to that another passage from Paul's letters too: 1 Corinthians 15:52   What is this 'last trumpet' that Paul is talking about?