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Blair Fraser

Join Date 10/2006

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CyberMage Crash Issue

I pulled this one out of the technical thread because it was getting unwieldly. I'd like to know the current status of this and if it's not fixed as of the July 12 hotfix, we'd like to get hands on trying to track down the problem. So Cybermage, when you read this, please give us an update

Here are the previous postings:

Reply #50
Beta 2 : Major freeze-crashes during the tutorial (on 21 June).

I'm new to the SSE beta. I have downloaded B2 on 21 June and have only played on that day, attempting to do the tutorial. TWO major crashes then happened, which made me lose interest in the game (for a few days).

Before you blame my computer, please be aware that the "freeze-crashes" I will describe have NEVER happened before in any of my numerous PC games. Also, please consider that my XP/SP2 system NEVER crashes (no BSOD, for example). I maintain a very clean system, thanks to daily antiviral + antimalware scans + registry cleaning. The Windows checkdisk function also indicates that my system is error-free (when the check is done during a reboot). DXdiag also indicates that my system is error-free.

Consequently, it is obvious to me that something in the SSE program enters into conflict with my system. Unfortunately, I have not found on this forum anybody else who seemed to have the same type of problem. Also unfortunate is the issue that the "freeze" does not allow SSE's own error-reporting window to appear and to generate a .dmp file in the MiniDump (I have checked at the appropriate location, and no MiniDump folder has been created yet.)

GENERAL DESCRIPTION. Game-screen freezes + Mouse-cursor freezes + Keyboard becomes dead-frozen (no keys work!) + a faint sound stuttering is heard, endlessly stuck in repetition.

SITUATIONS. It happened twice, on 21 June. I have not been into SSE since then, prefering to play at the new "Lost Empire" TBS/4X (which does not "freeze" on me). The first time, I was into the 1st chapter of the tutorial. Without pausing the game, I stopped playing for a few minutes to focus on the TV. I was not touching the mouse or the keyboard, and the game suddenly froze by itself : the stuttering sound alerted me to the problem, before I realized that nothing was moving on the screen and that I had lost mouse & keyboard functionality. The 2nd time, I was into the 3rd chapter of the tutorial. Again, the game was not paused, and I had stopped touching mouse & keyboard for 5 minutes to take a rest : the game froze by itself, and I was again alerted by the faint stuttering sound coming out of the speakers. Note that before, I had paused the game for 30 minutes to eat supper when I was into the 2nd chapter of the tutorial : that did not make the game freeze. Both "freeze-crashes" occured when the game was unpaused + when I was not touching the mouse & keyboard. It froze by itself!

WHAT HAPPENED NEXT. No crash window appeared : no SSE error-window, no Windows error-window, no BSOD, nothing! Note that I was playing in window-mode since my 19-inch widescreen was set at a 1440 X 900 resolution. The game-window was frozen at a certain point in the intersideral action, and I could see my desktop beyond its margins. I could not close the game-window (or alt/tab) because I then had no mouse & keyboard functionality. There were NO graphical anomalies within the game-window & my desktop's visuals : but there was that audio anomaly, a faint repetitive stuttering. I then had only one interesting option : press the reboot button on the PC's tower. I did that and came back to my desktop WITHOUT having been informed by Windows that a problem had occured. As far as WinXP was concerned, nothing had happened. I then easily got back into the game's main menu, as if nothing had happened : except that I had to restart the tutorial chapter. Since I purchased & downloaded "Lost Empire" on 21 June (the very same day as Beta 2), I decided to dedicate the next few days in that game. I will go back to SSE/B2, after having installed Stardock's SmartException program. Pehaps, next time, SE will identify the problem's context, since Ironclad's own error-reporting program seems to freeze with the game!

Your tech persons can obtain my DXdiag info if you tell me where to e-mail the file. For now, I can state that I have those relevant specs :

WinXP/SP2 (up-to-date)
1024 MB of RAM with a 4 GB fixed page-file!
Pentium 4 @ 2.8 GHz (the model of 3 years ago)
A new Enermax 485-W powersupply
DirectX 9.0c (up-to-date)
Asus GeF 6800 (512 MB vram model) with May 2007 Nvidia drivers (9424)
Creative SB Live with March 2002 drivers (no newer one exists)
DirectX reports NO problems with the video & audio
Antivirus & Antimalware programs had been disabled during SSE
No non-essential program was running in the background !

Thank you for reading all that stuff! I'm not angry : there are many months of beta to come.

Reply #117
MAJOR FREEZE-CRASH (3rd occurrence : see my reply #50 for a full account of the 2 other events + my system specs).

Symptoms : Sudden loss of mouse + loss of keyboard + frozen game-screen + slight sound stuttering.

No Ironclad or Smart Exception report was initiated because everything seemed frozen (except the repetitive sound stuttering).

When? : On the first 2 occasions (see reply #50), I was doing nothing (not even touching the mouse & keyboard). This time, the freeze seemed to follow an abrupt movement I made with the mouse (to go and select something fast).

Immediate solution : No functional mouse + no functional keyboard >> Press the reboot button. (No Windows error-message during & after reboot. Could reload and continue game easily.)

Differences with events 1 & 2 : It happened after 2 hours of problem-free play in a custom game. I was not playing in a window anymore. I had disabled hardware audio (because of the sound stuttering, I believed the SB Live card might be considered as a possible cause, even though this type of freeze-crash never happens in my other games.)
I took great care to close all possible running programs before launching the game. And this time, I had Smart Exception on, but the crash seems to have frozen it out of the action too. I could enjoy a lot more game-time than when the 2 previous events had occured during the tutorial.

Reply #122
Thanx, Yarlen. I shall re-select the SDC option, and go visually hunting for those rare & subtle celestial phenomena.
_________________________________________

Concerning my previous posts (#50, 117 & 118), which described a total game & system freeze, it happened to me for a 5th time, yesterday evening, but that time, I could un-freeze and continue the game! The sequence of events was :

1. Loss of mouse functionality
2. Music then switched to a repetitive audio stuttering
3. BUT this time, I still had keyboard functionality, because when I tested it by pressing the CapLock key a few times, the corresponding keyboard light went on & off...
4. And lo & behold, my CapLock dance seemed to un-freeze the game : the music came back, the mouse came back, and ships moved again.

In my 4 previous freeze-crashes, the loss of mouse & keyboard appeared to happen at the same time, so I could not execute step 3 -- but I will have to check if it's just a question of being fast enough to un-freeze the program with the keyboard (before it turns off).

The only change I had done in the set-up of the game, between crash #4 and crash #5, was to re-select audio hardware support (SB Live Value), since de-selecting that option had not prevented crashes #3 & #4. I don't know if that helped, especially since I don't know if the cause of those freeze-crashes is audio-related (the sound stuttering might just be a secondary symptom).

What is strange is that on most of those crashes, I was not even touching the mouse & keyboard : event #4 even occurred when the game was paused! (Which might point to an audio-related cause, since the music still plays when the game is paused.)

No Ironclad or SmartException or Windows error-ID window has ever appeared in those 5 cases.

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Morning of 15 July :

Sorry if I have not answered earlier : I had not noticed this thread. I was alerted to it by a PM.

Thanks for regrouping my relevant posts concerning that single issue : I had taken some time and trouble to compose them with precise care.

I have been busy with other things since the release of the 2 hot fixes, during the week of 9 July : I have not yet found the time to come back to SSE.

Since you seem interested by a follow-up, I will put some more time in playtesting, today and during the next few days. I will report back here after every crash of the same type (if any), and if none happens, I shall report that too -- after a few days of testing.

I insist on the fact that the type of major freeze-crash I have described NEVER happens to me in any of my games. For example, I have played at the recent "Supreme Commander" and C&C 3 for play-sessions lasting from 1 to 10 hours (in the very same day) with NO crashes at all (of any type!). My hardware/software system is kept very clean and error-free : I don't believe that the cause of the freeze-crash (= an abrupt loss of mouse & keyboard + game freeze + audio stuttering) which occurred 4½ times (before 9 July) resides in my system. Also, when testing a beta, I will close all the background programs I can (not totally doable with Win XP), to minimize interference.

I thank you for your interest. I had come around to believe that it was a very rare phenomenon : like if something in the complex SSE code did not like something in my particular system. As I said, I will keep you posted here, on this thread, during the next week (at least).

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Allquixotic

Join Date 08/2003

Wow, thanks for pulling this one out of there. And thanks for your prompt followup, CyberMage.

I'd be willing to help you troubleshoot this, in exchange for a virtual beer if I come up with an idea that fixes it.

Can you start by restating for us the things you've tried to get this fixed?

Have you
1. Used a different version of the nvidia drivers (an older version; a new/beta version)?
2. Installed all critical Windows XP updates?
3. Installed any new chipset drivers that may be available from your motherboard manufacturer? (e.g., Intel and VIA both have regular update programs, which fix bugs in e.g. the AGP or PCI-E device drivers)
4. Installed all optional DirectX 9.0c updates?
5. Tried the latest version of SINS? (You said no in your message, so hopefully you'll be able to say yes here soon)
6. Tried setting the in-game graphics to the lowest possible?
7. Tweaked some settings in the Nvidia Control Panel? (this could be a bad or a good thing, depending on what you did)
8. Tried underclocking your video card? (This shouldn't damage it, but may slow down your other high-end games if you leave it underclocked)

Can't think of anything else right now... keep us posted

Regards,

allquixotic

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Reply to Allquixotic :

1. I was using the latest official nVidia drivers of May 2007 (not their flawed June beta-driver). I will not revert back to older driver versions to test a beta, when ALL my other games do not freeze-crash as described above!

2. My Windows XP is always up-to-date.

3. I won't venture into a BIOS flash to test a beta when ALL my other games (and my Windows programs) function to a 99.9% perfection (excepting the bugs inherent to most games and which are eventually fixed by patches). I adhere to the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" computer-management approach. My system is in top shape : it must be something in the Sins-beta code which caused the freeze-crashes. (I am aware that it is beta-code AND that no complex software can be 100% compatible, 100% of the time, with all PC configurations.)

4. My DX 9c is a recent version.

5. No. The 4½ freeze-crashes occurred before the July hot fixes. I have not played since 9 July, before the update & fixes came out. I will relaunch my play-testing today, and will eventually report on this thread.

6. No way! My videocard is a GeForce 6800 (AGP) with 512 MB of vram. It can even handle Supreme Commander in a very smooth manner, at a 1400 x 900 resolution, with 4x AA (if I turn off the shadows and the mini-map). No way, then, am I going to play games at a low visual level of quality! I experience NO graphical glitch or framerate problem with Sins, at its maximum level of visual quality. I doubt my crashes were related to that, when they never occur in my other recent games, like SupCom and C&C 3.

7 + 8. Since my system functions with flawless efficiency, I do not dare experiment with abnormal tweaks or overclocking. My system works within the normal parameters set by Microsoft/Windows, Intel, and nVidia. Also, my comp does not contain any potentially problematic program (as used by hackers, for example) -- not even one single porn photo!

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to offer some troubleshooting, but since the Sins Beta is the ONLY game-program where I have experienced those 4½ freeze-crashes, I am not disposed to mess around with my PC for a beta-test. If it ain't broke...

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Allquixotic

Join Date 08/2003

3. I won't venture into a BIOS flash

I wasn't suggesting a BIOS flash. Chipset drivers are kernel-mode device drivers, much like your video card driver from NVidia. Microsoft's Update does not always offer the very latest chipset drivers through Windows Update -- exactly like they don't offer the latest Nvidia drivers. Would you justify not updating your Nvidia drivers because Microsoft isn't offering them through Windows Update? -- Didn't think so. If nothing else, you could see a performance gain in your other games by doing this!

For VIA, Soyo and ASRock motherboads, the chipset drivers have a brand name just like Nvidia has "ForceWare" -- they're called Hyperion Pro. See Link.
I'm sure other chipset manufacturers have similar programs - this is growing in popularity. First check with your first-tier motherboard manufacturer to see if they offer drivers on their website; if not, if your motherboard brand is not the OEM, go to the OEM. For example, Soyo tweaks VIA chipsets and calls them their own, but they're basically the same thing -- the chipset drivers are compatible.

7 + 8. Since my system functions with flawless efficiency, I do not dare experiment with abnormal tweaks or overclocking. My system works within the normal parameters set by Microsoft/Windows, Intel, and nVidia. Also, my comp does not contain any potentially problematic program (as used by hackers, for example) -- not even one single porn photo!

Obviously, your system does not operate with flawless efficiency, or SINS would work. There is a problem here, and the developers would like very much to isolate the problem. The suggestion is not that you attempt to play and enjoy the game at low graphics detail settings; the suggestion is not that you run your hardware at an underpowered level all the time; the suggestion is that you try these things, to get to the bottom of the issue. Isolating the issue and telling the developers what, exactly, solved your crashing problem, could be a very valuable piece of information, and I for one would like to see you work through some non-standard troubleshooting efforts to get this information.

Thanks for your willingness to test the new beta. Keep us posted.

Regards,

allquixotic

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1. OK, I learned something here. I believed that only a BIOS flash could update the chipset. I will look into that, following your procedural advice. But : my OS and games run fine (except for a few crashes in the Sins Beta)-- why would I then risk an update of the chipset? Just to make a beta-program run without crashes?! "If it ain't broke..."

2. Well : "flawless efficency" ... except in the case of the Sins Beta, of course! I'm sorry to say that the Sins Beta is not a big deal in my computer-user's life. Consequently, if everything else works perfectly, I consider my system's performance as "flawless efficency"! (I was somewhat piqued by your critical insinuation...)

3. Since I have not played since 9 July, I will first start by testing the updated Beta with my usual max-quality graphics. If those dreadful freeze-crashes still happen, I will try your approach and downgrade the visual level of quality, to do some testing.

4. Please note that I was unlucky that the first 2 crashes occurred during the tutorials. After that, I could enjoy many hours of crash-free gameplay. As far as I'm concerned, for a Beta that is located about 6½ months before the final, pre-release version, it is already a very stable and playable game. I do not consider that my 4½ freeze-crashes constitute a "federal case".

5. Of course, abruptly losing the mouse and the keyboard, and watching the game-program and the OS freeze, forcing a hardware-reboot, is not a pleasant experience (especially since it does not occur in any of my other computer operations), but I can live with it if it does not really happen that often and if the save-game can be reloaded without the problem repeating itself. Ideally, it would be best, of course, if it would not happen to any of Ironclad/Stardock's customers when the game is finally released.

6. Since it does not happen in my other games and programs, and since I have never heard about such a problem, I would be curious to have a few hypothetical answers to this question :

What can abruptly cause mouse-and-keyboard shutdown and program-and-OS freeze, with sound stuttering, when such a catastrophic phenomenon never happens in the other games and programs run on a PC ?

I am not a professional programmer or game-tester. Consequently, there are limits to what I am willing to do in this beta-test : messing around with my "flawless" system just to test one single game is not an option. SSE will have to work with the PC I have, especially since recent, comparable games I run (such as SupCom and C&C 3) NEVER freeze & crash, and display gorgeous graphics with a GeForce 6800.

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One week later (22 July) :

Since the three July update & fixes (of two weeks ago), no more freeze-crashes...yet.

I say "yet" because I have not had the time to playtest on a daily basis : lots of other games + great books to process.

I will report here again, on this thread's issue.

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RonLugge

Join Date 05/2004

+50

why would I then risk an update of the chipset?

Because, as a beta-tester, you want to experiment and provide information to the devs. They aren't asking you to do something ir-reversable, just try and poke and see if it fixes something. And then you can revert to your old stuff easily enough. (Heck, there's a built in windows function for that now!)

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Sorry, Ron Lugge, I am not a professional beta-tester but a paying customer (and amateur) participating in a beta : not quite the same thing !

I will not mess around with my PC when it works "flawlessly" with each and every other program -- besides a "beta" code !

It's asking too much...of a paying customer.

Anyway, I am not in the least complaining. I have had many hours of crash-free gameplay (or if you prefer : beta-testing).

Perhaps the three July updates have fixed the problem : I can't say, because I have not played enough for the past 2 weeks.

Since then, I have updated Direct X 9.0c to the July version, and I have updated my GF 6800 with the nVidia 162.18 (beta) July drivers. That, I was willing to do.

Updating the chipset when my PC experiences NO problem whatsoever outside of the Sins Beta : no way ! (I guess I won't get a job with Ironclad's QA service.)

I appreciate, Ron Lugge, the time and trouble you took in answering me.

PS > My daughter, who uses the "Sorceress" or "Sorceresss" nicks, tells me that she has seen you posting on other forums, in the past, where you employed the same "Ron Lugge" nick and the same kind of avatar. She tells me it might be on the Master of Orion 3, or Civ 4, or HM&M 5 forum.

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RonLugge

Join Date 05/2004

+50

Hey, I provided you with a reason to do it, not necessarily the reason you would do it

Besides, if it doesn't work out you can use XP's built "restore point" system to simply revert back. The instructions are floating around on the net somewhere.

MoO3, check, both official and the orionsector ones. Civ4... dropped by a few. HM&M 5? I... don't think so.

Don't remember a sorceress nick though... maybe if I saw her avatar it'd remember more.

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I wasn't suggesting a BIOS flash. Chipset drivers are kernel-mode device drivers, much like your video card driver from NVidia. Microsoft's Update does not always offer the very latest chipset drivers through Windows Update -- exactly like they don't offer the latest Nvidia drivers. Would you justify not updating your Nvidia drivers because Microsoft isn't offering them through Windows Update? -- Didn't think so. If nothing else, you could see a performance gain in your other games by doing this!

For VIA, Soyo and ASRock motherboads, the chipset drivers have a brand name just like Nvidia has "ForceWare" -- they're called Hyperion Pro. [...] I'm sure other chipset manufacturers have similar programs - this is growing in popularity. First check with your first-tier motherboard manufacturer to see if they offer drivers on their website; if not, if your motherboard brand is not the OEM, go to the OEM. For example, Soyo tweaks VIA chipsets and calls them their own, but they're basically the same thing -- the chipset drivers are compatible.

Having not found any info in my PC to ID its processor's chipset, I downloaded and ran the freeware CPU-Z (version 1.40.5 of July 2007). A very useful little program which identified a lot of hardware components of my PC, such as :

Its processor is an Intel Northwood P4 (socket 478), with a frequency of 2.8 GHz
Its motherboard is the ASUS P4S800 model
Its BIOS is an Award Modular 6.0, as revised by ASUS on 31 December 2003
The North bridge chipset is a SiS 648FX
The South bridge chipset is a SiS 963.

I then went to the SiS website. Its own chipset-ID utility confirmed that info, and then identified what were the most recent drivers for 3 dimensions of my PC's chipset :

1. April 2005 drivers for the AGP
2. November 2003 drivers for the IDE controller
3. June 2006 drivers for the ethernet controller

Since I purchased that PC in February 2004, items 1 and 3 are more recent. I experience NO problem whatsoever with my LAN and Internet connections, so #3 is not necessary.

Do you then suggest that I update #1 : the AGP drivers? How risky would that be? I am very wary on that topic (as stated in my previous posts) : tinkering with a chipset in a PC that works fine 99.99% of the time appears to me a risky gamble for very few gain.

You say that "If nothing else, you could see a performance gain in your other games by doing this!"

Well, even though my processor is a pre-dual-core P4/2.8GHz, it can run C&C 3 and SupCom without framerate sludge and program-crashes (if I limit the number of enemies and units in a skirmish game's setup). If my PC can pleasantly run Supreme Commander (the GF 6800 w/ 512 MB vram helping!), I do not feel that a theoretical "gain" is worth the risk.

I cannot believe that updating the drivers of a chipset is a safe and worthwhile gamble, when all my games are working great. I'm not being stubborn : just skeptical and cautious.

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RonLugge

Join Date 05/2004

+50

How risky would that be?

Create a restore point in XP, and the answer is not very. As in, assuming your computer is working right and you're not downloading malware, not at all. If something goes wrong, just use the XP restore point feature to roll back your drivers. Since drivers are purely kernel mode changes, XP's restore point should work just fine. Its not flashing the BIOS, which is risky.

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Thanks, Ron Lugge : I might follow your advice, after some more research on the matter.

I NEVER have malware in my PC : I manage a very clean system (and being "skeptical and cautious" helps!).

Think of it, one thing comes to mind. I have visited quite a few game-forums, where tech advice is given by experienced users, and before having read the info on this thread, I had NEVER read any advice recommending the update of chipset-drivers. I have seen a lot of various troubleshooting suggestions, but never anything having to do with chipsets and their drivers.

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RonLugge

Join Date 05/2004

+50

I NEVER have malware in my PC : I manage a very clean system (and being "skeptical and cautious" helps!).

Which is my point

I'm referring to the fact that every once in a while you'll see "drivers" of some kind availalbe for download that are, in fact, malware

I had NEVER read any advice recommending the update of chipset-drivers

I'll admit, its not the most common trouble-shooting step. It does happen, but usually only in the most stubborn, annoying, and tricksome of cases.

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