Cap Ships as Milestones

What if Caps were a reward for getting research to a certain level

from Sins Forums
I've been reading and thinking a lot about Capital Ships vs Cruisers vs Frigates.

It is clear that Capital ships are a special part of the game experience and that it seems disproportionately easy to get a capital ship vs getting a cruiser in term of the research involved in unlocking the ability to build cruisers. In real terms, Capital Ships would represent a significant amount of resources for a civilization to build. So I started thinking, what if Capital ships were more one of a kind. What if you only got one of each type in any given game depending of whether you had meet a certain set of criteria to get a capital ship of that type. This would add a bit of depth to the research tree, and would provide an incentive to research higher into any given tree.

An example of what I mean. Let's say that you start a game with no Flag Ship. You start the game building 15 Cobalts and research the entire first level of combat tech. As a reward for reaching this milestone, you gain the ability to build one Kol for free. You can not however build any more Kols. Therefore that flagship becomes extra important and special. When you have succeeded in gathering enough resources to research the third tier of Combat and the 1st Tier of Colony you unlock the next Capital ship. Maybe you could tie unlocking a type of capital ship to controlling a planet of each type, or controlling a certain number of the same planet type. The possibilities are endless.

Another way to handle this might be to make capital ships more like wonders of the world in Civilization. Every society can build one of each type, but it takes a protracted effort to build.

It also might make sense to attach each time of capital ship to the cruiser type that matches the flagship type. Researching the carrier Cruiser means you can build one Carrier Cap.

Of course you could add a technology high on the combat tree that allows you to build all the Capital ships unfettered.

Just an idea. What do people think?
10,195 views 29 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
I agree that cap ships could be milestones in the research/development. That would make them more valuable and rare.

I don't know about the details though since I'm not a beta player.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
I agree to some aspect, as the capital ships are the game's hero units, as it stands in my games, I have 10-15 heros, lol...
Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
10 to 15? cap ships are all i use.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
10 to 15? cap ships are all i use.

And that's exactly what shouldn't be happening.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
I disagree with only having one type of capitol ship.I mean look at the U.S. navy.Would you consider a carrier or a battleship capitol ships?At one time or another how many of those ships did the navy have.And that's one country not a solar empire.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

10 to 15? cap ships are all i use.

And that's exactly what shouldn't be happening.


I agree good sir!

I try to focus more on fleets with at the most 3-4 capital ships per fleet and 30-40 smaller frigates with a few cruisers.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Nobody is saying there should be one type of capital ships... I don't know where you got that from.

And you shouldn't look at the absolute number of (any) ships US has. You should look at the relative numbers. How many destroyers, frigates and submarines are around one single carrier? And this carrier is the capital ship in Sins.

But in Sins some have groups consisting of capitals only. This does not happen in reality and it takes all the "awe" factor of capital ships in a game.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
I try to focus more on fleets with at the most 3-4 capital ships per fleet and 30-40 smaller frigates with a few cruisers.

That is probably something of a good fleet consistution and what the game should aim for - but the game should FORCE you into this IMO. By price, upkeep and vunerability.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Perhaps have some benefit to having a fleet composed well, as compared to one of only capital ships?

Perhaps a tactical coordination bonus, that sounds cool
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
I agree that Capital ships should be researched and harder to gain than Cruisers. Maybe let the support type Capital ships be lower on the research tier, leaving the pure capital ship killers towards the top.

As it is now, I only reach the Capital Ship Yard upgrade and start spamming Capital ships of some variety, ignoring completely Cruisers. I own the galaxy with my mega death fleets of Capital ships only. Serious problem IMHO.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

I try to focus more on fleets with at the most 3-4 capital ships per fleet and 30-40 smaller frigates with a few cruisers.

That is probably something of a good fleet consistution and what the game should aim for - but the game should FORCE you into this IMO. By price, upkeep and vunerability.


i agree and mostly do the same.

Just tryed a savegame (forgot his name) from one who had proformance issues, and all i saw was a fleet with 20-30 or more capital ships.

The way i see it, it should be 1 or 2 cap ships for each fleet and something like 20-30frigats plus some cruisers for every cap ship.
That way you would see them as the power beasts they are.

I wounder what who would win if you had 1000 command points, one who only built cap ships, and the other only build 2, and the rest was a mix of frigats and cruisers as i said above?
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
I'm sure when Beta 3 and multiplayer come out all those players using capital ships exclusively are going to have a hard time dealing with players who make use of all classes of ships.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
I wounder what who would win if you had 1000 command points, one who only built cap ships, and the other only build 2, and the rest was a mix of frigats and cruisers as i said above?


A balanced fleet will most likely spank a group of caps-only any day. Feel free to build all caps, but that strategy won't hold up in multiplayer (or when the AI gets to its final state). Plus I'm pretty sure that capital ship costs/requirements are already something that's going to be addressed in the future anyway.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
The capships are too cheap when speaking of command points.
Atm they cost 40 points, so maybe raising it to 60 or 70 might make them more rare. And if i see someone in MP got 3 capships in one fleet, i will know for sure his powerful.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

The capships are too cheap when speaking of command points.
Atm they cost 40 points, so maybe raising it to 60 or 70 might make them more rare. And if i see someone in MP got 3 capships in one fleet, i will know for sure his powerful.


That would be me
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
A balanced fleet will most likely spank a group of caps-only any day. Feel free to build all caps, but that strategy won't hold up in multiplayer (or when the AI gets to its final state). Plus I'm pretty sure that capital ship costs/requirements are already something that's going to be addressed in the future anyway.

Phenomenal!
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Another Idea.

What if Caps ship were on a parallel command point system than the rest of your fleet. For instance, each planet you control allowed you to build another Cap ship. So you can always build one at the beginning because you control one planet. But with every planet you take over you can build another Cap ship. Maybe Volcanic planets allow you to build two more.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

Another Idea.

What if Caps ship were on a parallel command point system than the rest of your fleet. For instance, each planet you control allowed you to build another Cap ship. So you can always build one at the beginning because you control one planet. But with every planet you take over you can build another Cap ship. Maybe Volcanic planets allow you to build two more.


Wouldn't work for larger games, heck even now my games have 30-40 planets... Way too many capital ships could be build with your method.

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
First I rather hate to bring up the ship definition thing, but it is relevant if the terms are to be used we need to use them correctly or simply make up new ones (this IS a space game and does NOT have to follow navy terms.)

Any way [stepping out from lurking]

Personally I rather like the mix of “capital” ships (there term) that are currently provided. A battleship that lasts long and is good at killing other “capital” ships. A Carrier that can project fighters/bombers to offer a fast offensive/defensive cover. 2 Generalists that have very useful support utilities and can fight/survive well but not great. And a Dreadnought which really fits its namesake, not the most powerful but has additional range and siege capabilities (with even area effect)

These “capital” ships make a very good battle group add some smaller ships for scouting, hunting faster ships or utility and it will be complete. And THIS should be the Goal! Miss/loose one of these ships and your group is diminished more then just one ship but with all of the overlapping and extra abilities it offered.

It would seem that SINS did use a more classical warship definition here. Since the Frigates and cruisers can supplement the main battle group but they really shine solo or in “wolf” packs. And also strayed from the definition because Frigate and Cruiser "types" are historically more warship ROLE then "class" of ship (size has never played a role here) and are/can be classified as “capital” ships or not. (historically offen frigets where as large as other capital ships just faster)

I think the problem is how to get them into the game in a meaning full way. I think it should be all resource/support based. As the tech tree tends to limit types of fleets since people may just not go down lines (eventually in multiplayer the most efficient build will be found and some ships will never be made). This tends to force a unit based game rather then a group based game.
If you have all ships at the start (possibly some not fully realized since upgrades and tech items still need to be researched) then you will get full fleets but the abilities of each fleet may be the thing that varies.
You could pump out “smaller” ship after smaller ship with a meaningful but constant dip in resources. But since these ships are not “resilient” and to not “level up” they will end up being the work horse for raiding, defending, exploring. Operating as there namesakes solo or in packs and with enough speed to run when necessary.
The “ships-of-the-line” (possibly a better name since Capital is so general) are the “Hero” ships that should cost quite allot making a big drain on resources and support. Solo these ships are strong but should be able to be taken down by packs of non “ships-of-the-line” class. But make a battle group of them and there true power is realized being more then the sum of its parts. These battle groups (the line) should be the system/planet busters laying siege to planets and destroying defenses. Only another battle group should be able to counter them. Also a battle group is not complete until all of the roles are complete (minimum of one of each “ships-of-the-line” class) all of one or two class groups should not beat a mixture. (a fleet bonus should be added)
Now depending on game you should be able to build 1-3-x of these battle groups (one per star system?, one every X number of colonies?, small-med-large game? etc) resource willing . . .

I also like how it takes a group line this longer to jump from system to system (logistics and all) this makes it powerful but ponderous and possibly easily tracked. This may evoke a kind of chess with fleets moving there and there trying to avoid or clash.

Good stuff if pulled off . . .
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
How about Star wars?I know it's only a movie but what would a fleet of stardestroyers do against a rebel fleet....Look,I'm not saying that we should build nothing but capitol ships but don't limit the number.If you can afford them and want them build as many as you like.
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

How about Star wars?I know it's only a movie but what would a fleet of stardestroyers do against a rebel fleet....Look,I'm not saying that we should build nothing but capitol ships but don't limit the number.If you can afford them and want them build as many as you like.


I sorta agree, but I also agree that they are way to low on the techtree, maybe at like level 10 they should become available, if not higher, and should probably take more fleet point thingies.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
i disagree

Putting them on the tech tree will only drag out length of the game.

So which one should be on the tech tree? Acourding to the story the latest ship the TEC made was the KOL, so does it mean it has to the last one?

And even even leveling them up takes time, so the last one on the tech tree wont see the higher levels before the game is over..

I think the best way is to increase the cost, fleet points or make them have upkeep.

Putting them on the tech tree is a bad idea in my opinion
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top

Putting them on the tech tree is a bad idea in my opinion


I agree...
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top

I try to focus more on fleets with at the most 3-4 capital ships per fleet and 30-40 smaller frigates with a few cruisers.

That is probably something of a good fleet consistution and what the game should aim for - but the game should FORCE you into this IMO. By price, upkeep and vunerability.


Forum ate my post this morning

But anyway, don't artificially FORCE players to limit the capitol ships. The devs have the right idea by making combined arms the way to go, rather than simply manipulating game mechanics to make players do it.