Weapon Hit ratio?

Firstly i'd just like to say i love the game, it rocks!

Im not sure if this topic has been covered before, i did a quick search and came up with zip so i apologize if i missed something.

Im just curious if there's any kind of weapon hit/miss in play? By that i mean weapons have a chance of missing their target completely. From what i've seen (maybe im not looking hard enough) the weapons always seem to hit either the hulls or the shields. Even if missiles do miss they come around for another pass to hit it's target. I personally think weapons having the chance of missing could add a new level of play to the game. Right now if you have two capital ships...one a little damaged and the other one not fighting it's kind of obvious who's going to win. Having a chance of hit variable thrown in for me would make the battles more tense and less predictable.


The chance of hit percentage could be increased perhaps by the range of the battle.

The further away ships are from one another the greater the chance of missing, except perhaps with missiles as they have longer to lock onto their target.

AND/OR

The experience of the crew
The greater the level of the crew the greater the chance of hitting their target.

I remember a game called 'Haegemonia: Legions of Iron' Which at the time was a grahpically beautiful game but lacked game play. One game play feature was that weapons were very inaccurate until research (i think) was done on specific weapon groups which could also be apart of the current research tree. I suppose also if weapons aren't as accurate you could justify making them fire more frequently making battles more chaotic with weapons fire going all over the place.

What do you guys think? If you've made it down this far thanks for reading!

Cheers,

~Todd.
8,780 views 29 replies
Reply #1 Top

Only strike craft (fighters and bombers) can currently be missed. The data for everything else is set to 100% (barring the enemy's use of counter measures). In the Sins Universe, technology has advanced sufficiently that hitting large massive objects with minimal manuoverabilty (i.e, frigates, cruisers and capitalships) is a virtual guarantee. Even today, the use of computers and our knowledge of Newtonian Mechanics makes targetting pretty much a non-issue and in space without environmental effects, this is even easier. Ultimately, if you want them to miss, the data is easily modfied in the gameplay.constants wihch can be opened with notepad.

Reply #2 Top
Hey Blair,

Thanks for the quick response. I definately can see your argument, very good points. Thanks for setting me in the right direction to play around with it though.

Cheers!
Reply #3 Top
yes i agree but maby have it like homeworld where if a ship say a frigate suddenly moves all the shots miss (not missles) like iv seen where the bad guys run away and my shots miss cos he turns in n arc just as i fire and they dont hit the target but thier shields and hull still take hits.
Reply #4 Top

Only strike craft (fighters and bombers) can currently be missed. The data for everything else is set to 100% (barring the enemy's use of counter measures). In the Sins Universe, technology has advanced sufficiently that hitting large massive objects with minimal manuoverabilty (i.e, frigates, cruisers and capitalships) is a virtual guarantee. Even today, the use of computers and our knowledge of Newtonian Mechanics makes targetting pretty much a non-issue and in space without environmental effects, this is even easier. Ultimately, if you want them to miss, the data is easily modfied in the gameplay.constants wihch can be opened with notepad.




Yep, and this is the data that would need to be changed...

DamageData
ChanceToHitTargetType:ANTIVERYLIGHT
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.700000
BOMBER 0.850000
ChanceToHitTargetType:ANTILIGHT
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.650000
BOMBER 0.75
ChanceToHitTargetType:ANTIMEDIUM
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.1000000
BOMBER 0.1000000
ChanceToHitTargetType:ANTIHEAVY
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.100
BOMBER 0.100000
ChanceToHitTargetType:ANTIVERYHEAVY
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.100
BOMBER 0.100000
ChanceToHitTargetType:COMPOSITE
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.100
BOMBER 0.100000
ChanceToHitTargetType:CAPITALSHIP
CAPITALSHIP 1.00000
INTERCEPTOR 0.100
BOMBER 0.100000
ChanceToHitTargetType:CAPITALABILITY
CAPITALSHIP 1.000000
INTERCEPTOR 1.000000
BOMBER 1.000000

Reply #5 Top
O.o WTF do some of those areas mean? CAPITALABILITY? Anti-very-heavy?
Reply #6 Top
I hate to beat a dead horser but....no wait, I love hitting dead horses. I wish I could make a career at it.

Anyway, I still think the game could use a accuracy modifier where ships taking hits/damage lose a % of accuracy. This would help the AI and lower the absolute reliance on focus fire tactics.

LordKosc, thanks for showing us that 'ACCURACY CHART'. Accuracy based on target type is a must for modding and is already giving me ideas.

Hey, does anybody know if there is also a 'DAMAGE CHART' showing damage stats based on target type?
Reply #7 Top
Ron those are the weapon types.

Very light is probably flak, don't know what light is, but anything above medium is stuff likes beams, autocannons, and lasers. Don't know what missiles fall under. Capitalability is like "flak burst". Accuracy is determined between 0 (0%) and 1 (100%).
Reply #8 Top
OK, but then why aren't frigates adn cruisers in those tables, only cap ships, bombers, and fighters?
Reply #9 Top
holy crap, you can make the bomer as strong as a dreadnaught. haha... i hope they have a comon sense of limits so to speak. i mean like we know that a fighter or bomber can't yield a greater weapons bay than a frigate so in a sense they only can be upgraded depending on what you can fit on that fighter.

Reply #10 Top
If it is 100%, the what good is that research topic upgrade that allows for more accurate weapons fire? Plus the command cruiser, and the target assist ability of the Akkan Battlecruiser?
Reply #11 Top
Increased damage, I believe.

Edit: Range for the akkan, and damage for the cielo's.
Reply #12 Top
Very light is probably flak, don't know what light is, but anything above medium is stuff likes beams, autocannons, and lasers. Don't know what missiles fall under. Capitalability is like "flak burst". Accuracy is determined between 0 (0%) and 1 (100%).


You can see the type of attack in the ship files.

Weapon
WeaponType "Projectile"
damageEnums
AttackType "ANTIHEAVY"
DamageAffectType "AFFECTS_SHIELDS_AND_HULL"
DamageApplyType "BACKLOADED"
DamageType "ENERGY"
WeaponClassType "LASERTECH"

For example, this type (siege frigates attack laser) would be type ANTIHEAVY. It has a chance of 1.0 hitting CAPITAL SHIPS (which are all ships, besides bombers and fighters). And a chance of 0.1 to hit fighters and bombers.

--------

To the devs. Please also include the other armor types in the attack chance list, so we could mod it to hit certain frigates (for example VeryLight) with a lower probability then others.
Reply #13 Top

holy crap, you can make the bomer as strong as a dreadnaught. haha... i hope they have a comon sense of limits so to speak. i mean like we know that a fighter or bomber can't yield a greater weapons bay than a frigate so in a sense they only can be upgraded depending on what you can fit on that fighter.




I made a mod where the bombers fired nukes. Combine that with a carrier with 20 slots, and you get some very flashy battles.
Reply #14 Top
You could give bombers an hour long weapon cool down period. So, the bombers are launched, fire off their salvos and then have to return to their carriers to reload. When you relaunch them, I am betting that their weapon cool down period is reset.

This would perfectly simulate realistic strikecraft operations.
Reply #15 Top
Well I dont personally see why a ship getting hit would have reduced accuracy, unless the shots hit the bridge or power supply or some kind of computer terminal I dont think the guns would be effected. But then we would also need to add hardpoints, and thats already a no-no.
Reply #16 Top
Don't forget Emperor, there is a human element. Having you fellow cremates slain tends to be distracting... and all the shaking and rolling might interfere with doing your job
Reply #17 Top
Yes, that is why computers would take over aiming the gun, I think the crew would be more apt at keeping the ship from falling appart then aiming. But this is a pointless arguement since we dont know whether it is peole or computers aiming the gun.

See this is where some good LORE could come in handy... ahem.

And as far as I have seen ships explode in this game, they dont fall appart. So I assume everyone dies together at once and not more realistically as holes get blown in the hull.
Reply #18 Top
But this is a pointless arguement since we dont know whether it is peole or computers aiming the gun.


I'm sure the computer's aim the gun (on mount or central computers I'm not so sure of)... but if they don't have it set up to require human permission to fire (either central or on-mount, again), they're idiots.
Reply #19 Top
For what reason?

A computer would be able to decide which target is better, where the most vulnerable spot is most likely to be, and also be able to computer the movement of other ships and when to fire. Not to mention being able to function a lot better in high stress enviornments.
Reply #20 Top
For what reason?


Because humans are still the "ultimate self-programing remotes". I'm going to trust a human over an AI any day when it comes to judgment calls. A computer might be quicker, but I'd rather not trust it to get it right when it comes to friendly fire, or choosing which enemy ship to hit. (Wouldn't need to be approved on a shot-by-shot basis, just "engage ship X!"
Reply #21 Top
First, all of this is simply conjecture.. I dont want to start a flame war just an intelligent discussion of what could be based on today's knowledge as a starting point. I get my knowledge from two areas:
1) Knowledgeable of Modern military weapons and tactics (specifically US Navy)
2) Masters in Physics (with Thesis work on Modern/Future Naval Weapon systems)

But the concept of anything ever being an easy target solution is just not true. Modern weapons are never 100% especially a non guided kinetic weapon like their "gauss gun". Which by the way is not the route man is currently taking to achieve hyper-velocity munitions, they are using "light-gas guns" or Railguns. Both very different technologies from the gauss guns.

2) Modern radar guided projectiles you will not be guarenteed a hit on a manuevering target, unless it is something fat and slow (ie 1200ft Super tanker). Warships to include 1000ft carriers dont meet this because they are far from fat or slow. While it would be highly likely for a modern warship to successfully engage a large deck carrier (CVN/LHA/LHD) it is by no means 100%. Oh by the way you would be a dead destroyer/cruiser if you didn't begin the engagement in projectile range and had to close from some distance before firing.

3) The distances involved create huge issues for targeting and sensing. Especially, if there is any and I mean any form of distortion. It could be simple spacitial or Active/Passive countermeasures. Modern navies are the experts on Electronic Counter Measures(ECM) and Electronic Counter Counter-Measures(ECCM). ECM makes many weapons completely useless. Where ECCM is usually far less effective at countering the best ECM.

4) There is always issues associated with relativistic physics. When you start to approach .4c and beyond; newtonian physics goes bananas. I dont even want to imagine determining the equations of motion in relativistic space. Nor the computer that would have to be aboard the weapons that would be correcting.

4a) There are issues with inertia and countering that inertia once moving.

Like I said just trying to bring up real world issues with the lore. Doesn't make it impossible just somethings that can be used to flesh out the fiction. We will get there eventually. The next generation of US Navy ships will feature Rail guns and Free Electron Lasers. Who would of thought we would be using Buck Rogers shit so soon. Anyway, look forward to some flame back or feed back.

Lastly, the game rocks and I would like some more Electronic Warfare components to it but it works well. Especially when I get to see some new factions.

Reply #22 Top
Which by the way is not the route man is currently taking to achieve hyper-velocity munitions, they are using "light-gas guns" or Railguns. Both very different technologies from the gauss guns.


FOr those that are curious about the difference between a gauss gun (or the similar coilgun) and railgun, here's a link for the wiki:

Coil Gun / Gauss Gun

Rail Gun

Fascinating stuff.
Reply #23 Top
I suppose most of the accuracy issues in this game should revolve around strike craft.
Reply #24 Top

Only strike craft (fighters and bombers) can currently be missed. The data for everything else is set to 100% (barring the enemy's use of counter measures). In the Sins Universe, technology has advanced sufficiently that hitting large massive objects with minimal manuoverabilty (i.e, frigates, cruisers and capitalships) is a virtual guarantee. Even today, the use of computers and our knowledge of Newtonian Mechanics makes targetting pretty much a non-issue and in space without environmental effects, this is even easier. Ultimately, if you want them to miss, the data is easily modfied in the gameplay.constants wihch can be opened with notepad.


So Blair, looking at Gameplay.constants (which lordkosc has kindly excerpted for us), i see the ability to tune hit rates against capital ships, fighters (interceptors), and bombers. How do we "easily [modify]" the hit rates against frigates?
Reply #25 Top
afaik the game doesnt make a distinction between frigates and cruisers and capital ships for purposes of accuracy, though im pretty sure you can tweak the damage in another area.


I made a mod where the bombers fired nukes.

What did you use for a graphic?