Environment thoughts... and ramblings...

from Sins Forums
Hey everyone. I’ve been reading posts for a bit and have played through several games on a variety of different setups. What follows is a series of observations / suggestions / questions about the environment. (Caveat : Been playing this game quite a bit mainly because I just got my tonsils out and have been sitting here on hardcore pain killers for the last week… so that’s my excuse for any idiocy in the following post). I know it’s a beta, I see a lot of potential for the game (and even enjoy it on its current build), and I’m sure some of what I am saying is repeat... but here it goes.

MINOR POINTS

Make it so the planets/sun/asteroids can’t be flown through nor shot through. I think that this is rather self explanatory (I once thought I was really clever using them as cover…), and probably has already been mentioned. (On that note… it would be cool if the sun could be bigger. I understand why the planets are the size that they are, but nothing is getting built around the stars, and they are, ya know, STARS. Pretty big things)

Can there be some sort of mini gravity well like thing around the sun that does heat/radiation (whatever) damage to ships that get too close? Currently the star areas are rather… boring. Could be an interesting game mechanic, and make the battles around them more fun. (Probably would be AI and pathing hell though… fighters just dropping like flies)
MAJOR/UNDOABLE/CURIOUS IF ANYONE THINKS IT WOULD BE COOL… POINTS

Frankly, I find the environment setup to be the most disappointing part of the game at this point. They are really pretty, don’t get me wrong. The background images especially are quite something with the resolution cranked up. But I find the setup so counterintuitive. The planets and asteroids are connected by blue lines or wormholes or whatever the game’s pseudo-science justification for making chokepoints. Does anyone else find it kind of funny that some huge space fleet that just managed to fly between two effing STARS shows up and the navigator goes "Well folks… I know we all want to fly to that big populated planet to rain sh** down on them, but we need to stop off at that heavily fortified asteroid first." Cracks me up.

But even if you accept that (and I know, just like the 2dness, I accept it), why don’t any of the planets move? Just a little bit? Don’t these things orbit around the sun? It can’t be the time frame, I’m population whole planets here.

I’m a law student, not a programmer, so this is probably impossible / too late to do / etc. but I’m curious if anyone else thinks that this would be a fun way to set it up.
Have all the planets/asteroids orbit the sun in different orbit shapes / speeds. Then have a series of rules that would define where the blue tubes go. (have to make a major/minor planet distinction)

1. All major planets have one wormhole to the sun.

2. All minor planets have one wormhole to the nearest major planet.

3. All asteroids have a wormhole to the nearest planet (minor/major).

4. All objects have a wormhole to another object that is less than (make up an appropriate
distance, maybe a game option) away.

Now, that first asteroid that you get should just slowly orbit your planet (its kind of like a moon, anyway). The orbits would show up on the main map when you hit ALT. The wormhole lines would disappear, and the orbit lines would all be rainbow colored, with the same color relating to the same period in time for each orbit (maybe with a thin blue line showing up where eventual wormholes will arrive due to proximity… that way there are no surprises).

This way everything would be connected, the environment would be much more fluid and actually be like space rather than some odd island / tube combat. "Wow, that’s a sweet planet, but boy oh boy does it have a crappy orbit. Nearly every planet has a shot at it at one time or another." For a couple minutes every half an hour or whatever your brilliant chokepoints fail and you need to bring your fleet home to defend. You see where I am going with this… basically there would be periodic vulnerabilities to planets. Obvious results are that control of the star area would be much more valuable, that little 'regions' wouldn't really exist, and that defense would be more difficult (not a lot of chokepoints, if any).


I dunno, I just think it would be interesting. : ) Not possible, no doubt, just thinking out loud........
26,862 views 20 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
I get what your saying about the moving planets. It seems like a great idea but if the wormholes shift, that would mean you'd have to surround your planet instead of defending chokepoints (like you said earlier) and i don't know if that's a great idea. It would take some of the strategy out of the gameplay. You'd have to make the structures close to the planet to have full effect and even that would have to be a very thin defense line.

Also, I doubt some players will check where wormholes are opening up by pressing alt every few minutes. Crucial information shouldn't come from changing map perspective.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
Woops I pressed down and enter submitting my post   . Im really interested in your ideas.

Last thoughts on the moving wormhole lines... The idea in concept is neat. It would make you think more about defense and make even MORE possible attack scenarios. Timing would be essential and it would make you think on your feet. BUT (dramatic pause), this game is just not able to do that with the kind of weapons we defend planets with.

REASON BELOW

When i was moving to conquer another galaxy I put 5 broadcast centers surrounding my ice planet and I got to tell you... 5 structures side to side only cover about 1/6 of the planets... lets say atmosphere (closest possible area to the planet). Imagine defending asteroids or ice and desert planets were you could get around 10 gauss cannons and some shields and repair stations by making a thin line of defense around the planet. According to my estimate, I'd say you can get a seige frigate hitting the planet and only be getting shot at by 2 cannons.

But your theory would spawn/strengthen a genious strategy. You can still stack in a region... all you need is to surround a shield generator. Like just put it in a sea of gauss, repair bays and hangers. A personal stronghold. You could even put logistics structures in it. I don't know if thats good or bad but it would look cool with all those structures side by side... floating in space.


I guess what im saying is this game is based off tube combat. It isin't that realistic. I can't even imagine real space battles where one prick in the ship would suck valualeble resources out. Or even flying out of gravitational pulls with ease.
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
[Note: I think that the counter-intuitive nature of the parts of the game that I'm mentioning... the lack of make senseness of it... really detracts from the immersion, an important part of the game for me and, I think, for a lot of people..... it isn't strict realism I'm looking for, obviously, but minimizing the forced feeling of some of the game mechanics]

Valid point on the static defenses, another issue that I have with the game. I really don't think that it (again) makes much sense that, in space, you can't just fly around them. I can see the justification (you can't get out of the wormhole until you get to the end of it) for forcing ships to come out of fast travel mode at a particular location. But why is it that the ships can only fly around this 'gravity well'?

I think that a simple solution would be to lower the requirements for a planetary shield (I think its at 9 stations, right?). Maybe make the shields stronger (confession: I've never actually had an attack where they were really used... I swear I've been playing against hard comp players, so maybe their strength is fine). If you make lower requirements, make them a common defense tactic, it would force the attackers to a particular location.

Static defenses to protect the planet should focus on the planetary shield, rather than a defensive blanket over the whole planet. Maybe I'm alone here, but it makes a lot more sense to me (I mean, planets are BIG... and the focus on the protection of key defensive components like the shield generator would mitigate the "umm... why can't I just fly above these huge guns" thought the 2dness naturally brings up).
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
Yeah I actually have never even built a shield generator (or even the building that stops you from jumping away) but it seemed like a neat idea. The problem with moving wormholes is that if you really break it down, the only real defense is to stack on a generator... wait... then again you could say that non-movable wormholes have only 1 real defense...

In perspective it would be more fun to have a swarm of weapons platforms and such in a cluster away from the planet (kind of like the death star and that ewok planet in star wars) than it would be to stack wormhole openings. And your right, it would make tons of more sense.Plus it would be easier to mop up if you're conquering rather than wait for your damn cruisers to motorboat their way around the enemy planet to vaporize each mining base.

About your frustration with the gravity well. I like to think of it as the fast travel technology can only jump from gravitationally active sectors AND they have to be at certain distances and orbits for you to fast travel to them... and it would be a pain to actually escape the gravity well into... well... nothingness.

I think the game creators made the shield generator because the strategy we are talking about is still valid in the original non-movable planets and wormholes. It helps to defend one area rather than 2 or 3 openings (thats why i said spawn/strengthen in my last post and not just spawn).

The pet peave I have with this game is deciding on how loyal a planet is based on how much jumps (a bullsh** measurement) they are from your home planet. I've seen this from Rome Total War with inches on the map but they screwed it up by measuring jump occurances. Appearently its not their problem if something is 6 jumps away due to faulty wormhole generating.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
why don’t any of the planets move? Just a little bit? Don’t these things orbit around the sun? It can’t be the time frame, I’m population whole planets here.


Ironclad tried orbiting planets prior to the public beta--it just wasn't fun at all.

As to the population comment--the population really refers to taxed citizens / government. According to previous developer comments, most planets are already well populated with humans, you're just subjugating them and setting up your own local government.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
I still think orbiting planets would be ok , just make them all orbit at the same speed, as to not cause any issues with the phase lanes... In what way did they try orbiting planets? I mean very little if anything will change other than the orientation of the system in your view. And if you make the rotation slow say, one rotation every 30 minutes , most people won't even notice it. And it will appease many who say it is needed.

Look at my fine quality paint image, everything outside the pink circle would rotate, and stay in its EXACT formation to keep phase lanes as they are.



Nothing against IC but saying it wasn't fun, and having us experience it not being fun are two different things...
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
The above idea would rock my socks off.   
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
yeah, but that does mean that objects near the star either change their relative positions to interstellar phase lines, or intrastellar phase lanes, since both can't stay the game.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top




I take it that means you want that behaviour? ./shudder. That'd make my blockade habbits (sit close-in ships on the end of a phase lane I expect an enemy to come in on) a LOT more micro intensive, since either planet lanes or star lanes will suddenly start moving relative to my ships.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

why don’t any of the planets move? Just a little bit? Don’t these things orbit around the sun? It can’t be the time frame, I’m population whole planets here.


Ironclad tried orbiting planets prior to the public beta--it just wasn't fun at all.

As to the population comment--the population really refers to taxed citizens / government. According to previous developer comments, most planets are already well populated with humans, you're just subjugating them and setting up your own local government.



: ( Well that's too bad, thanks for the info. Do you know why it wasn't any fun? Anyone reading this play that version? I'm curious.

As for the population comment, that kind of makes sense. However, why don't we see any civilian traffic on the planet until that infrastructure upgrade? Maybe I'm not as observant as I'd like to think, but I believe the planets are quite empty looking before you start upgrading it.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
I think your confused, I said phase lanes would not move , it would be just like the picture above...
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
everything outside the pink circle would rotate, and stay in its EXACT formation to keep phase lanes as they are.


Well, you can do this now manually with a right mouse click. I don't really know what more this would add.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

everything outside the pink circle would rotate, and stay in its EXACT formation to keep phase lanes as they are.


Well, you can do this now manually with a right mouse click. I don't really know what more this would add.


It would add the illusion of rotation, which is what a lot of people want, as it would make the star system more "authentic feeling".
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top

I think your confused, I said phase lanes would not move , it would be just like the picture above...


OK, so instead of rotating each system your rotating the entire map? Otherwise, your not making sense. If each system rotates independently, they're relative locations don't change, which means inter-systemic phase lanes don't move, while inter-systemic ones do. Or if the entire map rotates around a common center... whats the point?
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
None of the phase lanes actually move, the ones connected from the planets to the star do rotate around the star, all in all the entire process has no strategic value, it is only a suggestion to appease people who want rotation. All stars are connected together just like they are now, and they do not move either.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

None of the phase lanes actually move, the ones connected from the planets to the star do rotate around the star, all in all the entire process has no strategic value, it is only a suggestion to appease people who want rotation. All stars are connected together just like they are now, and they do not move either.


Which is the entire basis to my point: The relative position of inter and intra stellar phase lanes will change. And either ships in the stars grav well will "track" (rotate with) the change of the intrastellar ones, or the interstellar ones. Either way, it won't be possible to "blockade" one of those phase-lines without either new UI options *or* a heck of a lot of micromanagement.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
Well good point, but so far, I have never had the need to blockade a star...
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

None of the phase lanes actually move, the ones connected from the planets to the star do rotate around the star, all in all the entire process has no strategic value, it is only a suggestion to appease people who want rotation. All stars are connected together just like they are now, and they do not move either.


Honestly if everything rotated in such a way that their positions wouldn't actually change, I can't see how that would help anything in the way of appeasing us rotationists. As previously stated, I can just hold right click and just spin it myself.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

Well good point, but so far, I have never had the need to blockade a star...


Your actually blockading the star lanes reaching into the star, if that makes more sense. E. G. sitting your ships on the place enemy vessels HAVE to jump in from. Great for defending your own star, or splitting an enemy star system in twain.