Distance through loyalty killing the "Empire" in Sins, and how to fix it

Roman-style!

from Sins Forums
Currently, loyalty is based on distances from the capital, measured in numbers of jumps. Thus, it is possible that a planet in another solar system may actually be more loyal than a planet in the system you're in now.

The exact numbers are:
0 Jumps = 100% Loyalty. (It's your capital!)
1 Jump = 90%
2 Jumps = 75%
3 Jumps = 60% (As it stands, this is currently the maximum loyalty for any planet in an ajacent solar system)
4 Jumps = 40%
5 Jumps = 15%
6 Jumps = 15%
7 Jumps = 15%

This is as low as it goes, 15% loyalty for any other distance. But that's a killer on the empire-building, and I've been toying with the following ideas:

Loyalty should be based partly on distance, but not entirely. I would however, for the sake of argument, keep the current arbitrary numbers, if only to use as an example.

Loyalty should be primarily based on economics, in my opinion. A planet that is doing well for itself will be much more loyal than one that is not. This can be expressed as many devices, but the most obvious one will be the presence (or abscence) of a Trade Port, and the amount of civic infrastructure developed on the planet. Perhaps, say, a 5% increase in loyalty for each. Additionally, Repair Docks, Mines, Orbital Refineries and Light Shipyards should be worth 2.5% loyalty each, and a capital shipyard should be worth 5%. This is because these are major employment sources, and create jobs - which means more money going into the planet!

So, a Terran planet with a trade port, five jumps away from the homeworld, should have 20% loyalty. With the addition of three Civic Infrastructures, it would go up to 35% - a marked improvement!

Loyalty should also be based on the distance of the world from threats. If the system sees enemy forces on a regular basis, it should not go up - if it gets bombarded, it should take a dive, albiet temporarily. (Say, to the tune of 15%.) On the other hand, if a planet has not seen danger in quite some time, the loyalty should go up, around 10% or so, slowly over time. (Say, after 20 minutes without any hostiles in the system, the loyalty goes up by 1%, and again every further ten minutes.)

Lastly, loyalty can be inspired by a military presence in the system. Whether this is loyalty through fear of subjugation, or loyalty out of love for the mighty weapons and brave sailors who protect them from hostile forces is up to the player's imagination; regardless, a capital ship present in the system should be worth a 5% bonus (and another 5% every time the number present is doubled - IE, 3 Capitals would be worth a 10% bonus, 6 would be worth a 15%, and 12 a 20% bonus, etcetera.) Obviously this gets prohibitive in a real hurry, but hopefully it's not too ardous to station a single capital ship in a remote system. And, lastly, defensive structures. Gauss turrets should be worth 0.75% loyalty each, while a Hangar Defense could be worth 3% each. Phasespace inhibitors shoulden't be worth anything, since they serve to keep hostile forces IN the system, but neither should they impose a penalty, either. Obviously, planetary shield generators are going to be VERY welcome, their presence should inspire 5% loyalty, and they follow the capital ship formula for doubling numbers leading to an additional increase.



So, let's re-visit that far-off world. Now it's had some time to grow, while you were listening to me ramble. The planet is 5 jumps away from the homeworld, thus, it has a 15% base loyalty.

We know it has a trade port, and has had it's civic infrastructure built up, giving it a 35% loyalty rating. It has three mines in system, giving it a 7.5% raise, and a light shipyard rounds it out to +9% economy from orbital structures. It has had a defensive web built up around it's jump-point, consisting of six gauss turrets and two hangar defenses, as well as an orbital shield generator, giving it a bonus of +15.5% loyalty from defensive structures.

So, for those following, that's:
15% base loyalty
29% Economic loyalty
15.5% Security loyalty
For a total of 59.5% loyalty - a MARKED increase. Although this planet is far from the capital, the very high economic development and the strong presence of defensive military has made this truely an imperial planet, no longer a backwater hell-hole. Even if they do see the occasional pirate raid, they're strong and secure in their position as one of the empire's vital assets.
7,496 views 22 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Love that idea. Really.

A minor nitpick:

(Say, after 20 minutes without any hostiles in the system, the loyalty goes up by 1%, and again every further ten minutes.)


This would be way to slow. It would take over 20+14*10=160= 2.4 hours for it to regain the lost loyalty. Something more sensible would be 1% per minute, for a total of 15 minutes to regain itself. (Which is still quite slow, imho.)

But all in all, I like the idea.

Actually, I like every idea that would change the current loyalty system (which is very bad in my opinion), but your idea is quite good.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Love that idea. Really.

A minor nitpick:

(Say, after 20 minutes without any hostiles in the system, the loyalty goes up by 1%, and again every further ten minutes.)


This would be way to slow. It would take over 20+14*10=160= 2.4 hours for it to regain the lost loyalty. Something more sensible would be 1% per minute, for a total of 15 minutes to regain itself. (Which is still quite slow, imho.)

But all in all, I like the idea.

Actually, I like every idea that would change the current loyalty system (which is very bad in my opinion), but your idea is quite good.


You've got a point, but I haden't intended for it to be capped. So that eventually, safety, loyalty, and so economy would make a planet as loyal as your homeworld.

But I suppose we could cap it at like, +/- 15, and make it grow in loyalty much quicker, after the 20 minute reset peroid.

But then, I play long games. For me, waiting two and a half hours is just a time investment.
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
I agree the loyalty factor is way to strong. So I suggest the devs do what real governments do and complicate things.

Loyalty(%)-
Base value set by race
Effected by: distance, ‘state of the empire’, and propaganda.
Effects: Odds of switching empires, Odds of Rebellion, and Planet Morale

Planet Morale(%)-
Base Value set by race.
Effected by: Loyalty, Environment (I live on an asteroid, this sucks), Tax Level, and security (wow the pink team attacked us three times already and got macked each time, you’d think they’d learn)
Effects: Odds of rebellion, Odds of switching empires, and production multiplier

Production multiplier –
Base value set by race
Effected by: Morale, Planetary bonus’, and production tech
Effects: Build rates for structures and ships, mining rates for metal and crystal, planetary tax base.

My Idea of rebellion is if Loyalty and Morale get low enough there a chance that the colony might declare its independence start creating its own fleet and start defending itself.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
With a little tweaking... I think that this is a great idea, better than regional capitals!
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
Those are some good suggestions.

Most games i play the loyalty factor doesn't come into play until way late in the game, because i play small 20 planet maps (due to my crappy computer). That is until i try to take the enemy AI's capitol which is usually on the far side of yours. If the AI has established enough broadcast centers then taking its worlds becomes a major pain. Not that i disagree with the current way culture, and loyalty are set up. I do disagree with the way planets instantly flip back to the enemy faction when you try to take a world by force. You spent "X" amount of time bombing this world back to the stone age, and effectively wiped out its infrastructure, and most if not all of its population. It shouldn't flip back to the enemy immediately after colonization. However it should have low morale, culture, and the chance to break off for "x" amount of time until ether you build up the world again, or you neglect it. Then it flips over to the enemy, or declares independence.

A subject planet with low morale, and loyalty should have a chance to declare independence, and try to form its own little faction. There is no easy way to explain how this would happen. Lets just say the world in question has a random chance that it doesn't like any of the current factions. Instead of joining the enemy it becomes a new faction capitol (with all the benefits of a capitol world). Plus immunity from enemy culture for x amount of time after forming to give it a chance to build up. This obviously would happen on a world that has no fleet of ether side there, because if there was a fleet orbiting needless to say that world would be bombed to oblivion again
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
I agree the loyalty factor is way to strong. So I suggest the devs do what real governments do and complicate things.

Loyalty(%)-
Base value set by race
Effected by: distance, ‘state of the empire’, and propaganda.
Effects: Odds of switching empires, Odds of Rebellion, and Planet Morale

Planet Morale(%)-
Base Value set by race.
Effected by: Loyalty, Environment (I live on an asteroid, this sucks), Tax Level, and security (wow the pink team attacked us three times already and got macked each time, you’d think they’d learn)
Effects: Odds of rebellion, Odds of switching empires, and production multiplier

Production multiplier –
Base value set by race
Effected by: Morale, Planetary bonus’, and production tech
Effects: Build rates for structures and ships, mining rates for metal and crystal, planetary tax base.

My Idea of rebellion is if Loyalty and Morale get low enough there a chance that the colony might declare its independence start creating its own fleet and start defending itself.


I assume that up under "Loyalty" when you refer to "propaganda" that you refer to the brodcast towers? That would be a great way to up a planet's loyalty. Case in point, in my last game, I left the home system and took over another system entirely. My only new terran planet has only 35% loyalty. However, I also have an impressive array of broadcast centers. Now, as I understand it, the influence generated by these make it harder or impossible for the enemy to colonize a recently destroyed planet (nice touch, by the way). What if the amount of influence on a planet could increase the loyalty? A possible downside to this presents itself, however, since enemy influence could decrease the loyalty, unless this effect only worked on planets currently owned by the player.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
100% culture will create a 10% loyalty boost - or 1% loyalty bonus for every 10% culture.


So remember: Coke adds loyalty.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
i also think that if you own a whole star system then you should get a loyalty bonus for that as well
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
I personaly like the original idea a great deal. In my opinion it is well thought out and makes the game more practical with out depleting the challenge. Some ideas ive heard on this topic have been quite crude and completly cancel out the loyalty challenge itslef.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

ZimatDeltaHalo
Sorry,
Yes, I was referring to the culture lines when I said propaganda.
However, Culture influence is part of the game, and I think if a colony is receiving culture from another race it should affect its loyalty. But not necessarily over impact its production, or to automatically make it switch sides.
I also don’t like the idea of a planet previously bomb into non existence receiving so much culture that it instantly flip to an enemy colony as soon as you plant roots. Either the culture lanes need to drop back to the nearest enemy colony, or the loyalty of the new colony needs to be high then gradually wear down as the culture lines start affecting it.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
Lurker, I’m happy for you that you like the ‘original idea’
I like the concept of the ‘loyalty challenge’ as well; I just think it needs tweaking.
I think you are wrong (not to mention a bit insulting to your fellow beta testers) to say any of the ideas put forth on this thread are at all crude or not thought out well enough in some way.
I personally think ShadowDragon’s idea is a good one as well, as is the developers ‘original idea’. I know that I personally spent some time developing mine, I didn’t just pull an idea out of a hat, and say ‘I wonder how this will screw up the game’.
Another thing to consider is the fact that one of the races, I think the advent, is going to have psy-powers. They might have a ship with the ability to send some sort of psy-ray that can force a colony to flip sides. With that as a possibility, I think the ‘loyalty challenge’ might be a little lopsided to the advent if that happens. So I would like to have the tools needed to shore up my colonies’ loyalties. I don’t think this removes the challenge in any way.
As far as what’s practical and what’s not, that’s up to the great ones at Stardock and Ironclad to decide.

Rebuke if like Lurker, I’ve said my peace.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
I think the economic loyalty boost is a bad idea. Just because they pay a lotta taxes dosen't mean that they are more loyal. They're just either highly populated (which would give you the complete opposite affect) or they're just... generous. The jobs thing dosen't seem too important to make people happy, either.

I love the solar system bonus. That is a good idea (danielost kind of muttered it).

OR you could invest some money into a planet (kind of like increasing the law inforcement budget) and it will slowly raise loyalty. Like, if you put 5000 credits into a planet's... lets say "governmant donation box" they would gain 5% loyalty every minute untill the money dries up. Its simple and easily controlable but can only be fixed if your willing to pay up. It's like the planet is corrupt and needs to be governed with proper police forces.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
You could rule outta fear (Like the Empire) and loyalty could be based on distance and how many units you have there.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
Shibfilet, people pax taxes based on how many there are of them on the planet. But the more economy the planet gets, the more prosperous it will be; not all of the "Economy" I listed is even economy at all. It's just things that make the planet more prosperous, make living there a much more pleasent thing, and consequently make the planet more loyal.

Do you understand? The planet is more prosperous, and the fact you're making more tax income off it is indicative of the fact that the planet's population is rolling in more dough than they were before. Since (presumably) you're not levying unduely harsh taxes on them, this will make them happy and content with your rule, consequently making them more loyal.
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
I think the economic loyalty boost is a bad idea. Just because they pay a lotta taxes dosen't mean that they are more loyal. They're just either highly populated (which would give you the complete opposite affect) or they're just... generous. The jobs thing dosen't seem too important to make people happy, either.

I love the solar system bonus. That is a good idea (danielost kind of muttered it).

OR you could invest some money into a planet (kind of like increasing the law inforcement budget) and it will slowly raise loyalty. Like, if you put 5000 credits into a planet's... lets say "governmant donation box" they would gain 5% loyalty every minute untill the money dries up. Its simple and easily controlable but can only be fixed if your willing to pay up. It's like the planet is corrupt and needs to be governed with proper police forces.



economic loyalty boost is a bad idea= "It's the economy Stupid" Most elections are about the economy. If the economy is good people tend to be content, thus more loyal.

Just ask the Polish people about that, the election that brought down the communist government were about the economy, not ideaoligy.

So just to say I totally disagree with you about good economy not effecting loyalty of the people.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
I think you should be able to build a limited number of outposts in differnt systems. they acts like your capital plant, just maybe 95% allegence and the plants surronding it may go down according to the same. plants around your capital one get an economy bonus/or culture bonus.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
I like the distance from Capital income loss concept. It makes it harder for one player to steamroll over his opponents...AND it is a fairly realistic concept.
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
woh mjl lets calm down.

HOW THE HELL do you rate how well your economy is doing? The only plausible idea is to compare it to other empires but once you conquer a galaxy or 2 you will be such a landslide overpower to everyone else (assuming the enemy are computers which are the majority of your opponents. Like in skirmishes or campaigns.) that you will have instant loyalty. And difficult loyalty makes the game fun. Instead of just building more and more trade ports and refinery's you get to mix it up and decide where to place broadcast centers.

Yeah paradoxnt what they have now is pretty good. In the new beta they won't let you take culture rich planets so they won't instantly flip to the enemy's side.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
woh mjl lets calm down.

HOW THE HELL do you rate how well your economy is doing? The only plausible idea is to compare it to other empires but once you conquer a galaxy or 2 you will be such a landslide overpower to everyone else (assuming the enemy are computers which are the majority of your opponents. Like in skirmishes or campaigns.) that you will have instant loyalty. And difficult loyalty makes the game fun. Instead of just building more and more trade ports and refinery's you get to mix it up and decide where to place broadcast centers.

Yeah paradoxnt what they have now is pretty good. In the new beta they won't let you take culture rich planets so they won't instantly flip to the enemy's side.



Shibfilet, the "its' the economy stupid" was not directed at you, it was a reference to a 92 campaign bumper sticker... Did not mean to ruffle ya there...

you can rate an economy on a point system. A planet would not flip just because the other player has a better economy, it would flip due to the basic needs of the people not being met. a lack of basic goods and services. countries with oppressive governments do not face revolts from the people due to the political structure but due to economic conditions. I think we crossed on the culture flip vs. economic flipping on this one.

Even if another race has a high culture rating it would not flip if the planet has a good economy. now a poor economy plus high foreign culture might cause a revolt.

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
Yeah but how do you meet those needs? orbital structures giving your people trade goods and commodities? That would just be another version of broadcast centers! And if you expand on ground structures that'd be lame. Remember, they aren't REALLY part of your government. You just have a planetary control over them. They aren't legitamite citizens. They just are being governed by you.
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
Another idea: for each enemy ship destroyed add 1%. this is lost when you lose a ship in that system.

PS I don't have the game yet so I can't ballence it very well.