UI Feedback and some gameplay

from Sins Forums
First of all, the game works great on my computer, Pentium D 3.0 Ghz, 2 GB RAM, x1900xtx. 1680x1050 res. Haven't had any massive battles with lots of AIs to see if I can strain my machine because a huge game would take days.

1) The UI is missing a minimap. Okay maybe you don't want a minimap and want me to zoom around, ok. Consider this, in my first game I kept hearing the pirates launched thing but never saw any pirates and eventually one day I check out one of my far away planets and it's covered in pirates and most structures blown up, hmm wish I could have seen that sooner. Maybe a easy way to zoom in on important events, I dunno.

2) The sidebar list. I don't care how many extractors or research stations I have on a planet. I need to find my factories fast so I can change way points and issue construction orders on the fly.

3) I need the buy/sell metal and crystal buttons on my main screen. I buy/sell a lot and all good players will.

4) I'm not sure how many capital ships are supposed to be in a normal game but how about a zoom and select nearest capital and have that button rotate through them all.

4.1) When something is being researched, replace the research icon with a progress bar + name of what is being researched.

4.2) Change resource icons to 1000 (+7.5/s) If I want to hover and see the breakdown, okay.

4.3) Play around with the location of the hover info box. Right now it's in the lower right hand corner where it doesn't really catch my eye. Maybe it's just me or my 22" widescreen monitor



Gameplay:

5) Game is way too slow. I like a long game, but sometimes I find myself with nothing to do. 2hrs for a tiny map that you don't even go through 1/3rd of the tech tree is not right.

6) Colony ships. Can we get rid of these please? It's useless micromanaging and since there is no penalty for having a bajillion planets, there is no reason not to colonize everything. Make it so the pop goes to 0 and then if I have a majority military presence in the area, the planet shifts to my control after a set amount of time.

7) Tech tree. Stuff takes a lot of research centers. The amount of centers needed for technology should be scaled based on the size of the map. I find in 1v1 and 2v2 maps I can never get very far into the tech tree.

8) Cobalt rush. This is what I do, what the AI does and is sound strategy. The thing is that building a research center + researching a tech costs as much as building maybe 5-7 cobalts. There is no real replacement to the Cobalt so a boom strategy has nothing to shoot for to counter a Cobalt rush. In order words I would like MOAR UNITZ!

9) Siege ships. These ships are dumb, charging stright into a planet to kill it. These ships also have only one purpose which kinda makes it lame. These ships should be able to damage other ships, maybe give them splash damage as well, like land based artillery. Current system is, clear a path, them pahse in siege and guard them. Hardly interesting or fun.

10) Formations? I dunno, ships just overlap each other and if not zoomed in, 3 ships could actually be a cluster of 7 ships.

11) Counters. Most good strategy games have counter units. As it stands now, having more units + more tech will win me the battle guaranteed. And by more units I mean more quality units, of course 3 cobalts will die to 2 capitals. If a 10 Cobalt + the starter Capital comes at you, what is your counter?

12) Focus fire penalty, bonus for attacking a ship at it's side or rear. More ships, more hotkeys, more weapons, more races, more options, more maps, more booms.

Conclusion: This game gave me happy goosebumps in that it could be really fun.
9,087 views 29 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Agree with a lot of this

Disagree with this

6) Colony ships have a purpose and you have to protect them or purchase the support capital ship. It actually creates strategy as means you cannot go rush a planet and take it over without having delicate support ships to help you consolidate it.

11) Some good strategy games don't use counters. Personally, I prefer the non-counter system. Counters are very difficult to balance. Also, I don't like the fact that you can build a whole group of units and they are completely useless because your opponent has a direct counter. It usually has the effect of completely negating the use of most units and relieing on non-countered troops.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
4.2) Change resource icons to 1000 (+7.5/s) If I want to hover and see the breakdown, okay.


Seconded.

6) Colony ships. Can we get rid of these please? It's useless micromanaging and since there is no penalty for having a bajillion planets, there is no reason not to colonize everything. Make it so the pop goes to 0 and then if I have a majority military presence in the area, the planet shifts to my control after a set amount of time.


Huh? First, colony ships are weak, so you have to protect them, ie. the enemy (especially the militia units) can destroy them, thus depriving you of colonizing.

There are an integral part of the gameplay. Besides, not much micro is needed here. Just jump it to wherever you need something colonized, the rest happens by itself.


9) Siege ships. These ships are dumb, charging stright into a planet to kill it. These ships also have only one purpose which kinda makes it lame. These ships should be able to damage other ships, maybe give them splash damage as well, like land based artillery. Current system is, clear a path, them pahse in siege and guard them. Hardly interesting or fun.


The AI is dumb in general, so nothing special there.

Scout ships also have only one purpose, so they're lame too. Give the scouts some superweapon of doom... uh, not really.

Siege ships are to kill planets, they're good at that and this is enough. You've got artillery with splash damages with LRM frigates.


11) Counters. Most good strategy games have counter units. As it stands now, having more units + more tech will win me the battle guaranteed. And by more units I mean more quality units, of course 3 cobalts will die to 2 capitals. If a 10 Cobalt + the starter Capital comes at you, what is your counter?


Gauss cannons, hangar defenses with bombers. Your own starting capital.

12) Focus fire penalty


Already exist with shield mitigation, although it's imho too low currently.

bonus for attacking a ship at it's side or rear.


Sadly this was already shot down by the devs.

Would have been a very nice addition...
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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
10) Formations? I dunno, ships just overlap each other and if not zoomed in, 3 ships could actually be a cluster of 7 ships.


Agree. I think formations should be similar to those in homeworld 1.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
We're looking into a number of these items, but there won't be a mini-map. That's what the seamless zoom and Empire Tree are designed to eliminate.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
The UI is missing a minimap. Okay maybe you don't want a minimap and want me to zoom around, ok. Consider this, in my first game I kept hearing the pirates launched thing but never saw any pirates and eventually one day I check out one of my far away planets and it's covered in pirates and most structures blown up, hmm wish I could have seen that sooner. Maybe a easy way to zoom in on important events, I dunno.


You can press C to instantly zoom out to the system level, IIRC. Spacebar takes you to the location of the latest audio warning, and there's the event box too.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

2) The sidebar list. I don't care how many extractors or research stations I have on a planet. I need to find my factories fast so I can change way points and issue construction orders on the fly.


Since way points are set on a system level basis, just select the planet to do that. And since factories get controlled from the planet screen too, same there.

3) I need the buy/sell metal and crystal buttons on my main screen. I buy/sell a lot and all good players will.


Personally, I've been pressing to get them to have a left click buy, a right click sell, a given resource.


4) I'm not sure how many capital ships are supposed to be in a normal game but how about a zoom and select nearest capital and have that button rotate through them all.


... Why?

4.1) When something is being researched, replace the research icon with a progress bar + name of what is being researched.


And when the devs finally break down and allow concurrent military and civilian research?

6) Colony ships. Can we get rid of these please? It's useless micromanaging and since there is no penalty for having a bajillion planets, there is no reason not to colonize everything. Make it so the pop goes to 0 and then if I have a majority military presence in the area, the planet shifts to my control after a set amount of time.


Um, no thanks. Thats a rather drastic mechanic change, and the removal of colony ships means you no longer need to cart (escort) a fragile vessel around with you early game, or pay big bucks for the Akkan late game.


7) Tech tree. Stuff takes a lot of research centers. The amount of centers needed for technology should be scaled based on the size of the map. I find in 1v1 and 2v2 maps I can never get very far into the tech tree.


And on larger maps you can hit the cap too easily. That, in a way, is the point. Many of the higher level techs are unbalanced on smaller maps (cap ship research, insurgency, planetary bombing improvements, the construction boosts and the economy stealer at the top of the civic tree, tec etc).

In order words I would like MOAR UNITZ!


Why? You have plenty. Sure, in early game you don't use them much, but in later game LRM frigates and siege frigates become vital, and carriers are powerful units to control a star with (as well as taking out defenses) and therefore make the flaks needed. Hoshikos / Cielos are also quite powerful, and the Kodiak verges on replacing the Cobalt.

Siege ships. These ships are dumb, charging stright into a planet to kill it. These ships also have only one purpose which kinda makes it lame. These ships should be able to damage other ships, maybe give them splash damage as well, like land based artillery. Current system is, clear a path, them pahse in siege and guard them. Hardly interesting or fun.


First off, siege ships do have the power to attack ships. They just suck at it.

Also, having them be a purely anti-planetary force makes sense gameplay wise -- they're a specialized unit, powerful at their role, but vulnerable to just about anything else. You have to protect them, and their presence in the game means that there is a clear difference between a raiding force and conquering force, beyond size (aka a fleet optimized for raiding can't really conquer, however large it gets).


10) Formations? I dunno, ships just overlap each other and if not zoomed in, 3 ships could actually be a cluster of 7 ships.


Ships do tend to move into formations, though they don't maintain them. And yes, ships do fly above/below them, personally I like that -- gives them a little bit of horizontal concentration.


11) Counters. Most good strategy games have counter units. As it stands now, having more units + more tech will win me the battle guaranteed. And by more units I mean more quality units, of course 3 cobalts will die to 2 capitals. If a 10 Cobalt + the starter Capital comes at you, what is your counter?


If a carrier heavy force comes at me, I counter with flaks. If a LRM heavy force comes at me, I counter with carriers or jump-positioned Kodiaks / cobalts. If a kodiak heavy force comes at me, I keep my carriers at a distance and pound with fighters, or LRM ships.

If a 10 cobalt + capitol ship force comes at my home world, I fall back on the repair center and let my Sova's fighters pound the force until it either comes to meet me, or is clearly bypassing my defenses, at which point I take it in the rear.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top


You can press C to instantly zoom out to the system level, IIRC. Spacebar takes you to the location of the latest audio warning, and there's the event box too.


I think the other Stardock guy got it right and I should use the empire tree as well as zooming out. I could use some red flashing when enemies are attacking to grab my attention more. But you have to remember that if I am involved in a battle I need to know VERY quickly if it's a second attack or just a few scout frigates doing the autopilot thing. Having to zoom out to see where 3-4 ships just came in costs valuable time. I can attack in 3 places at once in a normal paced RTS, in this slow pace I might be able to attack in 20 places so I can spam you full of wanrings that you won't know what is going on Those messages and audio warnings are quite useless btw. Not a knock on the game, they are useless in every game, oh no is another scout frigate invading my territory? Have you ever researched PSIDAR II? good lord, lol at all the messages.


Siege/colony ships: I know how to protect these and it's quite boring. You either A) keep them in a planet and bring them out when neccessary or B) Keep them 1 phase jump out of your fleet so they can run to safety or run to your fleet. There's no fast strike craft in this game yet so I don't see how I can possible lose a single colony/siege ship unless I make a few errors in a row. I know you want to make it more expensive and take more fleet slots to bombard and take a planet but if you make them into somewhat combat capable ships (ahem splash damage) then I will use them in my fleet and then I will have to protect them and happy tactics will be born.

LRM splash damage: Whoever told me to research a level 7 military tech to counter a cobalt rush, good lord. You have to spend a lot of credits just to get access to LRMs while I can pump out another 5-6 Cobalts. Ron had some good tips to defeating a Cobalt rush.

More UI stuff:
-When you click build frigate, I need a waypoint button there. The way I do it is build units first THEN select waypoint. There's enough room for a waypoint button so throw it in there.
-Auto place structures is awesome! Until it placed my repair center in some terrible location and I had to override it. I need auto place economic structures only and other options
-Add some intel on enemies you have discovered onto the main UI in some corner of the screen. Just their color + name + race would be sufficient. You can show the scores of each player, # of caps, or even something useful in mp games like if they are lagging a lot

Only gameplay thing I'm going to add its it seems much too hard to get a good boom going. The first few civic researchs are terrible. Improve civic on your planets is awesome and trade centers are awesome but it takes roughly 5,000 credits + a bunch of minerals (which is omg 2 capitals!) to build the civic research stations + 2x trade ports + research trade.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
Those messages and audio warnings are quite useless btw. Not a knock on the game, they are useless in every game, oh no is another scout frigate invading my territory?


Yeah, they definitely need to improve the built-in warning system, and I heard they have plans for that, eventually.

-When you click build frigate, I need a waypoint button there. The way I do it is build units first THEN select waypoint. There's enough room for a waypoint button so throw it in there.


Why? Thats not where it belongs. Its just fine where it is, a mere one click away from the construction screen.


-Auto place structures is awesome! Until it placed my repair center in some terrible location and I had to override it. I need auto place economic structures only and other options


Personally, I just use the auto-place mines only option. I want all my buildings in a nice, tight, easily defended / repaired cluster on the "wings" of where ever it is that I'm going to build my defenses at. I don't see why anyone would want to build those except in clusters.

Anyway, the button to control auto-placing is (at least, last time I hit it by accident it was...) right on the main UI, so just toggle it as needed. I never use that option, so I don't remember exactly which button it is.


Only gameplay thing I'm going to add its it seems much too hard to get a good boom going. The first few civic researchs are terrible. Improve civic on your planets is awesome and trade centers are awesome but it takes roughly 5,000 credits + a bunch of minerals (which is omg 2 capitals!) to build the civic research stations + 2x trade ports + research trade.


Economy is expensive. But it also means that if your gamble pays off, you'll be in a position to out build your opponent with your (far superior) economy.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Economy is expensive. But it also means that if your gamble pays off, you'll be in a position to out build your opponent with your (far superior) economy.


How does trade actually work though, does the trade figure indicate how many credits you get with each individual ship completing a trade route, or is it the figure for total credits gained for all 12 ships completing their trade route?

The first way means you have to wait for around 10mins to pay off your investment.

Assuming a 10credit/sec economy, that is 500 secs to afford the trade route, also assuming you do not spend on anything else. So you have to spend ~20mins to purchase your trade route and see a benefit from it. That is quite a long time to spend at a military disadvantage.

In the second scenario it is just unbelievably bad investment, as it will take over 10 successful full trade runs to pay back your investment assuming you don't lose ships.

I think that trade should be really useful, however at the moment, I don't see how a player can justify spending that outlay, when they will likely see a very poor return.

Mind you perhaps I just haven't played enough I just don't see a huge benefit in 1v1 skirmishes in building it. I would imagine for longer/larger games it may be a lot more useful.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
I think that trade should be really useful, however at the moment, I don't see how a player can justify spending that outlay, when they will likely see a very poor return.


And it is really useful. You get I think a base of 33 credits per ship plus a bonus for long distance flights, and trade stations produce quite a lot of trade ships. Even having 4 planets with a station each will pay off your investment quite quick and boost your income considerably.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
UI request.

Currently when I click on a factory the rally indicator doesn't display until I hit the rally icon. I normally set the rally icon to a different part of the gravity well. Sometimes I will have the rally flag at another planet or two away.

so currently, when clicking the factory I cannot see where the rally flag is until I actually hit the icon. A little bit of a time waster. And if I have the rally flag a planet or two away, I have to remember where I set it.

(Unless I am missing something, which is very possible) Still very new to Sins and there is a lot going on that I am not aware of (yet).

Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
Hi all,
altogether good points made. I also want to restate my UI suggestions once more:

-selecting a factory and then right-clicking in space should set a rally point. Please!!!

-selecting several resource asteroids at once and clicking the "build mine" icon should start mines in ALL ASTEROIDS SELECTED. currently, it will just start building in the first selected asteroid. this is annoying, and a waste of time!

-I absolutely would like to see a "sell/buy" bar for resources in the main UI, and also in the research UI. I waste so much time now switching back and forth. In addition, buy/sell could also be mapped to hotkeys.

thanks and keep it up!
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
-selecting several resource asteroids at once and clicking the "build mine" icon should start mines in ALL ASTEROIDS SELECTED. currently, it will just start building in the first selected asteroid. this is annoying, and a waste of time!


also, scuttling ships would be nice as well
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
-selecting several resource asteroids at once and clicking the "build mine" icon should start mines in ALL ASTEROIDS SELECTED. currently, it will just start building in the first selected asteroid. this is annoying, and a waste of time!


You can select your planet, go to logistics building, and build that way. With autoplacement of mining structures selected, you never have to worry about selecting asteroids.

also, scuttling ships would be nice as well


You can :o Unless you were joking and I'm short a sense of humor after 8 hours at work.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
meant clicking scuttle and having it kill a group of them instead of having to do one at a time
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top

You can select your planet, go to logistics building, and build that way. With autoplacement of mining structures selected, you never have to worry about selecting asteroids.


true, yet not my point. I would like the option of giving a build order to three asteroids with two clicks without navigating menus. this should be extremely easy to implement and would help me (and others I presume) a lot.
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top

You can select your planet, go to logistics building, and build that way. With autoplacement of mining structures selected, you never have to worry about selecting asteroids.


true, yet not my point. I would like the option of giving a build order to three asteroids with two clicks without navigating menus. this should be extremely easy to implement and would help me (and others I presume) a lot.



Well, you can build from one planet/asteroid after the other without leaving the build screen, just click on a planet, open the build screen, then click on your next planet, queue up what you want, click on the next planet, lather, rinse repeat. If you have zoom problems, double-click on the target planet and it will center it on your screen so you can place structures where you want. Does the same thing for each panet submenu, it stays on the submenu when you click on the next planet.

pek
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top

Well, you can build from one planet/asteroid after the other without leaving the build screen, just click on a planet, open the build screen, then click on your next planet, queue up what you want, click on the next planet, lather, rinse repeat. If you have zoom problems, double-click on the target planet and it will center it on your screen so you can place structures where you want. Does the same thing for each panet submenu, it stays on the submenu when you click on the next planet.

pek


thanks, pek, but i want to give orders, not have a click-fest!

ONE rectangle, ONE click, 3 asteroids start building. other games can do it, why not SoaSE?



for example, in SupCom you draw a rectangle around x massfabs to select them, then click on the "off" button to turn them all off AT ONCE. that is what i mean.
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

Great idea Antibody. We'll add to the wish list.

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
And if I have the rally flag a planet or two away, I have to remember where I set it.


mouse tooltip tells you were to put it.

true, yet not my point. I would like the option of giving a build order to three asteroids with two clicks without navigating menus. this should be extremely easy to implement and would help me (and others I presume) a lot.


Shift, three clicks, then one click.

One click followed by three clicks, without any need to hunt for individual asteroids to select them.

I'll take the latter option.
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
Another simple UI improvement suggestion/request:

a right click on the map sets a rally point when a planet or its shipyard is selected.

is this planned for beta 4 or can we get this please?


Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
It was in and removed. It's too easy to set a rally point by mistake when rotating the camera or other common right-click functions. This led to nonstop complaints about ships AI not behaving correctly.
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top


true, yet not my point. I would like the option of giving a build order to three asteroids with two clicks without navigating menus. this should be extremely easy to implement and would help me (and others I presume) a lot.


Shift, three clicks, then one click.

One click followed by three clicks, without any need to hunt for individual asteroids to select them.

I'll take the latter option.


Or even easier: wqqa (assuming a 2/1 asteroid configuration)
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
Or even easier: wqqa (assuming a 2/1 asteroid configuration)


thanks for that. i like it!