The difficulties of offensive

from Sins Forums
I think anyone who has seen a replay where one group is excessively offensive (thoughts wander to Kosc v Kryo) and the other is just lollygagging a defense will agree with me when I say: defense is TOO easy.

Kryo was, throughout the battle, embattled not only with a relentless assault of frigates by kosc, but also by wave after wave of pirates. The difficulty was that kryo was able to outlast and even outproduce kosc while on such an extreme defensive. this raises the question: exactly how much momentum do you need in a fleet before you're able to destroy and hold parts of enemy territory? How can we reduce the rediculousness of the pro-defensive elements of the game? Will tactical strikes ever be effective if even an early rush can be rebutted and absolutely annihilated so easily?

the defensive elements of the game are way out of wack, any offensive of most any caliber collapses rather easily and will leave the offensive team utterly drained with even the meakest of counter efforts.
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Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top


the defensive elements of the game are way out of wack, any offensive of most any caliber collapses rather easily and will leave the offensive team utterly drained with even the meakest of counter efforts.


While I agree that that will occur on smaller maps, I'm not so sure about larger ones.

That said, I haven't seen the replay yet.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

Well all defenses have a weekness. And if you attack continuously, and not 'en-masse' you can break through just about anything.

However tactical points should be reduced having 45 points leaves you with the ability to make something truely indestructable for long enough for a large fleet to be assambled.
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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

However tactical points should be reduced having 45 points leaves you with the ability to make something truely indestructable for long enough for a large fleet to be assambled.


IIRC, that requires a (rare) random bonus for the planet, with fairly severe penalties.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
I'd of won that game if 2 things happened, first I didn't lose my KOL, and 2nd, that I didn't let Kryo's KOL get away...
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
Use flak frigs to deal with hangar defense, and LRMs/bombers to deal with gauss guns.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Ships are too easy to produce.

As long as you have the resources and 2 or more light factories per system, you can produce new ships so fast nobody can invade you.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Ships are too easy to produce.

As long as you have the resources and 2 or more light factories per system, you can produce new ships so fast nobody can invade you.


Which is the same for the attacker.

The one running out of resources first is the one that loses. So manage your economy well.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
eh, defenses are actually quite easy to kill IMO, it only takes a few flaks to wipe the floor with bombers and bombers/lrms kill defenses VERY quickly. as to mass producing frigs, unless the invader doesnt have a capship, frigs cant do much of anything
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top

The one running out of resources first is the one that loses. So manage your economy well.


I usually use LRM to destroy the opponent's mining facilities early, in order to cripple his.

I would use fighters, but I find them too effective against gauss cannons
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

Kryo was, throughout the battle, embattled not only with a relentless assault of frigates by kosc, but also by wave after wave of pirates. The difficulty was that kryo was able to outlast and even outproduce kosc while on such an extreme defensive.


Couple of reasons:

1) The pirates' first raid came just as my new fleet was coming together. They didn't get much done before I was ready and wiped them out en route to deal with kosc; subsequent raids were basically just an annoyance.

2) If kosc had pushed harder, pursuing my Kol and taking out my mines (then moving on to the other nodes), he probably would have been much more effective.


If you just beat on a planet with no Krosovs in your fleet, rather than firing for effect on what you *can* take out, it's no wonder you find your offensive ineffective.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
From my experience, playing really defensively always puts you at a fairly substantial disadvantage. Sure, going on the offense is risky but it's better to put pressure on your opponent than just let him take his time doing whatever he wants.

The defenses too powerful? You can fly right by gauss cannons with minimal losses. A well thought out attack and easily get past the most turtled player.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
The defenses too powerful? You can fly right by gauss cannons with minimal losses.


And this is the key. Massed gauss platforms have several weaknesses. First, even when supported by repair stations they can't survive LRM/bomber barrages for very long at all. Second, their range is limited, and if a planet is not a dead end, usually they can only effectively cover one jump-in point. A lot of difficulty in dealing with defenses comes from letting the AI pick targets. It sends Cobalts in to get slaughtered by them, it sends some ships to attack other worthless targets.. Toying with the auto-attack settings and just letting loose your LRMs and bombers and keeping the rest out of range (or circling around the gauss cannons to attack defensless targets in the grav well) is key
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
So it basicly boils down to this. Kosc needs to pay more attention
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

The defenses too powerful? You can fly right by gauss cannons with minimal losses. A well thought out attack and easily get past the most turtled player.


true. I have seen pirates do this a lot, they mananged to move past rather big gauss clusters and attack the other side of the planet or even jump to another system, so defenses do help, but you also need a fleet to really push back an attack.

that's probably what I'll do more in future games.

what I really have problems with usually is keeping my siege frigs alive. what are you doing? keeping them in the other system until most defenses are down or just setting them on hold position and maneuver them so they are out of danger and can still do their job?
Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top

The defenses too powerful? You can fly right by gauss cannons with minimal losses. A well thought out attack and easily get past the most turtled player.


true. I have seen pirates do this a lot, they mananged to move past rather big gauss clusters and attack the other side of the planet or even jump to another system, so defenses do help, but you also need a fleet to really push back an attack.

that's probably what I'll do more in future games.

what I really have problems with usually is keeping my siege frigs alive. what are you doing? keeping them in the other system until most defenses are down or just setting them on hold position and maneuver them so they are out of danger and can still do their job?


Myself, I keep the siege frigates a system away until I get rid of the mobile defenses, then I bring them in to do their job. Although I've started to not bother with them. The caps ships may take longer, but for the ship slot cost of 7 siege frigates you can get a marza that can do multiple duty. It takes a little longer with caps, but they get the job done.

pek
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top


The defenses too powerful? You can fly right by gauss cannons with minimal losses. A well thought out attack and easily get past the most turtled player.


true. I have seen pirates do this a lot, they mananged to move past rather big gauss clusters and attack the other side of the planet or even jump to another system, so defenses do help, but you also need a fleet to really push back an attack.

that's probably what I'll do more in future games.

what I really have problems with usually is keeping my siege frigs alive. what are you doing? keeping them in the other system until most defenses are down or just setting them on hold position and maneuver them so they are out of danger and can still do their job?


Myself, I keep the siege frigates a system away until I get rid of the mobile defenses, then I bring them in to do their job. Although I've started to not bother with them. The caps ships may take longer, but for the ship slot cost of 7 siege frigates you can get a marza that can do multiple duty. It takes a little longer with caps, but they get the job done.

pek



but if I am not completely mistaken, two korsovs do more damage than one marza. a marza does about 40, which is what most cap ships do, marzas do 50 or 60 or something like that.

hm, but then its not a bad think having to think about this. if you have to fear a quick counter and need to kill a planet quickly you go for more siege frigs, if you focus on battling the enemy fleet or if you just don't care how long it takes or if your scouting reveals the enemy fleets far away you can go for more combat ships.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Very true, I had a great game the other day, I and 2 allies against 2 other allied players, who notably were out-economy-ing us I think. At any rate, north attacked 2 planets, I used a small fleet to come in as well.

In the south my main fleet attacked another planet; the north was the main defensive/offensive area so they quickly responded with their 2 big fleets... at no point did I see them split their fleets in two.

When it became apparent that north couldn't do much dammage, I simply ran them deeper into enemy territory while my ally assaulted worlds... he took a bit of a beating but eventually one fleet broke off to chase mine and it became an even fight.

My southern fleet anhilated one world and then turned into deeper territory and met up with my other fleet... me and my ally abandoned our conquest (which the enemy did not spare time to kill and reclaim) while we went deeper. We found a nice ice planet, and my 4 siege frigates murdered it. Just then the enemy fleet appeared, and we ran... did a big loop through 3 more systems and eventually escaped to one of our forward defenses. By the time his fleet got there we had defenses and back up and we murdered his.

The point here is that the enemy couldnt retake his planet And Catch up with my fleet. His marza simply couldn't kill the asteroid we colonized, fast enough. His fleet also was not fast enough to reaching the 4 Siege Frigates before they killed the ice world. They are impressively useful and well worth the micro management they require to keep alive.

But it wasn't a conquest, it was a raid... under more constant fire, cap ships are very nice too and speed is less of an issue.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
The main advantage of siege frigates I can see is, sort of like Gauntlet mentioned.. you can wipe out defenses, move your fleet to another planet and leave your sieges to bombard the defenseless planet