Oh and i forgot, this was the best case scenario for the smaller ships: no additional research done!
The more researches you do the larger the gap gets between smaller and larger ships as the upgrades do a % bonus to the thing researched and whatever it may be the capship has the staying power to benefit from it much more than many small ships!

So the more the game progresses, the more the gap i have pointed out will spread and caps will get more superior (even further by advancing in levels)

While this could solve the problem with rebuilding capships, the problem with capships being ALWAYS superior to a fleet with the same cost/supply persists.
If we would sole that instead of putting a bandaid on the wound the first would vanish, as you had alternatives to replace the lost cap!

there is a quite simple resolution to this situation:
dont lose your capital ship, dont play into a pissing contest if you know you'll lose. classic noob mistake.


besides I've recovered more than once from losing an only capital ship. that being said I usually cause much more net damage... but still.

and either way if your enemy pushes the advantage while you have no cap ship the game will soon be over anyhow.

If anyone needs capital ship management skills, ask Multianna for help, his capital ships run away before they even lose their shields, COWARD I SAY!!!!!!!! COWARD!!!!!!!!

*shakes spork in the air like a mad man!!!!!!*

Well, I kinda figured they'd read. Of course, even before you changed the title the topic was ignored in favor of a general flagship rant, so I was probably wrong. I wasn't exaggerating though, can't honestly deny the rest of it.

It's not just flagships, it's not even capital ships, it's any advantage. A planet, a botched engagement, losing a constructor to some pirates while it's building the repair station you're about to need. Jumping out takes a long time. Going into a system you just scouted seconds before and finding a dozen carriers is going to mean your flagship is gone before it can turn. There is no way to avoid getting your ass kicked at some point. You can't just run away either, retreating entails rectal bleeding when you jump into an enemy fleet.

In a bigger game, you could retreat to your defenses, sacrifice an outer planet while building up an interior one if you were rapidly overcome, send in new capital ships for brief stints to gain experience before retreating to relative safety. You can pick away at a significantly larger fleet with a bit of time and the right ships. You're probably going to lose anyway, but there's at least a chance. There isn't a chance in small games, nowhere to go. You can't even use massed bombers to try and assassinate the enemy, wont have the fleet allocation for it. Just getting the tactical slots for a couple hangars is going to be a major investment when your empire is three or four planets.

The game is just very unforgiving with small maps. Another game a few days ago was a 2v2, both opponents lost their flagships, one in the first fight, one significantly later. The game was over with that first drop though, there was no turning it around. You can take on small fleets with just a sova, and significantly larger fleets when on the defensive or in a running fight. The replacement ships were easy kills while posing little threat. Kharaks cross isn't even that small a map and it was still decided in the first ten minutes. It's already a pretty good game, better gameplay than most final releases, and more stable than most even after they've been patched a few times. Multiplayer on the other hand is going to be a real pain with needing several hours to play a game that doesn't consist of a single skirmish followed by a losing battle of varied speed, sometimes extremely slow. I don't know what to do with it, drastically increase shield mitigation maybe, but a losing fight just does not work right now.

Your comparison of 10x LRMs vs building 1 capital ship is a little off.. yeah its more cost effective and less time to build a capital ship.. but that ship can only attack what 1 or 3 targets? where 10x LRM all concentrate dmg on the capital ship and overall should have more dmg output than 1 capital ship.

i like how capital ships are enormously important, i just finished a game where me and my opponent both lost our capitals, and then he rebuilt his and I couldnt; cuz I destroyed my capital yard. (wont do it again)

After that he had the superior capital ship, and I didn't even though I was the one who killed his first. It was a tough game and I won and we both made mistakes but we both made pretty amazing comebacks.

It was harrowing, it was tense, and I loved it... if it were easy to replace Caps or if they were not Godly important it would be less wondersome.

Hahaha, so that is why I didn't see you make another cap ship. It was pretty touch and go sometimes, but your overall strategy was superior.

GG and we both learnt a lot.

That it has plenty of jokesters?

    We have several solutions in the works for this.

the rectal bleeding or the being able to retreat?

if anyone i've seen play this game knows how to retreat , its multianna! I swear he is retreating before his ship even takes damage

Well it is not off, it is an actual test i did yesterday.
This is no number juggling its hard game practise.
Of course we focus fired on the cap and moved the frigs in as a pack.
Still they all get killed. Try it if you don´t believe me.

Well anyways, i think i´ll make an extra topic about balancing and counters, where i´ll try to oxplain to the people how those things work.
I still have the impression that many people don´t know wheat they are talking about when they ask for something.

Most of us have been playing games for quite a long time and are very, very well aware of how counters and balancing works, having seen them in multitudes of games



Not to be mean, but don't exclude yourself from this either. Several people have offered very valid arguments for why it works the way it does, and why it shouldn't be dramatically changed. But they bounce off making no impact

Well, i have quite a bit of modwork under my belt, both as a developer and balance tester, so i think i know what i am talking about.
As said i don´t want this to be a rantfest or anything, more as a outline for people who will for example be starting a mod.
Balance is the hardest part to archieve in a game if you don´t have a plan, but also the most crucial.
Well you see what i mean and my methods, soon, maybe you´ll agree with my views ^^

I retreat when i can see that my capship wont survive, and usually i get away with less then 1000 hull points
It all depends on how fast my shield/hull is taking damage

And yet, on this forum our job is to offer our suggestions and make a case for why we believe they are valid. That's where it stops. It's not up to us to beat it into anyone who doesn't agree by implying they don't understand anything and don't know what they're talking about. Whatever past experience you have does not automatically elevate your opinion above anyone else's and make it the 'right' one, and in fact using the "I've done this before and know what I'm talking about, and you don't" line actually hurts your case more than it helps it. If you have that much experience, then it's more beneficial to you, us, and the developers if you *show* it by explaining why you think the way you do, instead of just saying, basically "Listen to me because I know more than you do".

In the end, your opinion counts no more or less than anyone else's on this forum. There are many debates that happen on these forums, and most of them do just fine without getting personal. It's not our jobs to convince everyone that our ideas are correct. Our jobs are to offer as many points of view on suggestions and issues as we can to try and paint a clearer picture for the developers and help them see all sides of it, but it's up to them to decide if a particular idea is good for the game or not.

u know its funny I had this exact same debate but a little more serious like yesterday or day before.....

arguments from authority on the internet where no one can actually Verify your experience are mostly lame... they can support an argument slightly but you are likely going to ruin it by doing so. People don't react well to it, and they shouldn't because you shouldn't trust experts just because they are 'experts' look at how strongly they are scrutinized in court cases. Arguing from 'authority' is just poor arguing.

Well put I should add, Pithlit, that I don't mean to rip into you like that. It's just that we had a guy (who will remain nameless but most will know who I'm talking about ) on these forums who always posted as if his his opinion is the only one that mattered while being pretty insulting about it, and he pretty much made everyone here hate him. Your opinions do *matter*, just try not to go the route of attempting to beat them into everyone. Everyone on some level believes their view is the strongest, but arguing that doesn't really belong on these forums

^^I fully agree with you.
I don´t want to elevate my opinions above others, i only wanted to show how and why i have formed my opinions and that they are not only things pulled out of thin air.
And from now on i´ll only 'suggest' that some people seem like they have no idea what they are talking about when they are talking about balance
As you have requested, and as i had already promised i have explained my views and suggestions in another topic, i hope you like the read.

When you see a cap ship turning to retreat order your ships to the position their cap will jump from. Then as soon as you see their jump drive engage (point of no return) order your ships to jump. Your ships should be hot on their heels. Of course I generally only do this if their cap ship at least has no shields, mine has half of it's shields left and I have a very good chance of winning the battle.

well damn it... that just makes sense.

If its so easy to loose your carrier... then its equally as easy to kill the enemy one. Well unless you stink but then should turn the difficulty down.

Problem solved.

Its a nightmare scenario, you both have caps and his cap is at 2357 health and yours is at 2034 health and your hoping the extra 2 cobalts you have will make up the 323 damage difference before your cap dies and your doing the calculations in your head and your constantly moving your mouse back and forth between the caps , thinking if he was at this damage 2 seconds ago and im at this damage , and he gets damaged 102 per second and i get damaged 83 per second , and your at the point of no retreat ,and....aaaahh "gg"   

'Tis like I said, high risk/high reward gamble I had pretty much just the same gamble against Ron in our last game. My Sova was almost full health, but I only had a few Cobalts left just after a previous engagement when he jumped in. His Sova was probably half shields and a bit more than half hull, but more Cobalt escorts and he had 1 fighter wing while I had 3 bomber wings with my Sova. I thought if I focused on his Sova with all of my forces I'd be able to get it in its damaged state, but I lost that gamble

almost like playing Poker with "all-in"

yes, the loss of a capital ship in a small game CAN be crippling, but that just is an incentive to surround it with, lets face it, cannon fodder ships, or jump in your smaller ships first then jump in the heavy hitter, i constantly jump cobalts in then my Kodiak's then perchans and finally my cap ships. Though i have lost my main cap ship a few times but came back to win the fight, mostly because i have the Akkan and it isn't my main line ship...