Resource balancing

or, "two hundred thousand credits and two hundred fifty crystal"

I assume, as has been alluded to by devs, that the economic system is getting a bit of an overhaul in Beta 4. Even so, I just want to make sure the problem I'm about to describe is getting addressed in some form.

I played a Large-Random game with some (4) AIs recently. I wanted to test how well I could do in a large (4 star) environment with very few opponents. I found myself a few hours later with hundreds of thousands of credits, having taken my home system early (destroyed the AI already in it) and two other full solar systems.

Metal production was at about 7.5 per second. I had over 50 creds a second coming in. All resource upgrades were researched. Hell, the entire RESEARCH TREE was researched.

But crystal stayed at one to two points per second. Even with god-knows-how-many planets. Even with all the crystal mining upgrades. Even with a ton of ice planets. It increased a total of one point from the base game. And while that may add up to a ton, metal increased even more and is just as valuable on the black market. So..what's going on?

Now, I realize crystal is the "rare" resource in SoaSE. It seems to be meant to limit advanced ship production. YOU REQUIRE MORE VESPENE GAS/ADDITIONAL PYLONS. But the thing is - the only ship you can make without a lot of it is Cobalts. It doesn't limit advanced ship production, because everything from a LRM frigate to a Hoshiko robotics cruiser is counted as "advanced". So why not stick with the basics?

I'm not sure if you guys would remember this, but there was a Star Trek RTS called Armada II. It's relatively new compared to a lot of classic RTS games but everyone would see it as really old now. Anyway, in the start there was a very SoaSE-style dynamic. When playing the Federation, there was a scout ship (forget it's name, doesn't matter anyway) and the Defiant. The Defiant was the early attack fleet ship you'd build at the start to secure planets and stuff.

Well, what happened a lot of the time was that players would build fifty Defiants and go rush with them. It wasn't a good kind of rush - it was the kind of rush that you didn't want to go up against with any advanced sort of ship, you'd just want to counter it with more Defiants if you were playing mirrored. Well, rushes are common in a lot of RTSs, and they're not always bad. But due to how slow and expensively SoaSE moves in research, the Cobalt is not only a rush king but a cheap unit that's superior to the other units throughout a lot of the game. Why? Research helps (better lasers, shields, armor), but the real limiter seems to be our old friend crystal.

Not only does this encourage players to build up huge armies of cheap, crystal-lacking Cobalts (and therefore limiting fleet diversity to 'cap ship, cobalt x40) it serves as an annoyance. Sure, I can buy a bunch of crystal off the black market, but when you have three solar systems to defend, you need a lot of it, and so you end up clicking Diplomacy every thirty seconds to refill your crystal, run out of credits (2000 a pop!), then thirty seconds later refill it again.

So here's my point.

The fact is - crystal, as it stands, as a resource, seems to be a little broken. Unlike MySQL, vector graphics, and Oprah, crystal does not scale well. Regardless of the various oddities in my style of play that game, it could be seen as an exaggeration of a normal game that pointed out some flaws that are less obvious in a smaller game.

I'd like to hear if anyone else has opinions on this subject.
3,697 views 13 replies
Reply #1 Top
A) are you patched all the way? They're still balancing crystal, metal, and credit incomes, so its got a long way to go -- but its also come a long way.

B) its expensive, but you can buy crystal on the black market.

C) You should be producing more crystal than your describing, sounds like somethings wrong.
Reply #2 Top
I'm going with C. That doesn't sound correct at all. I do know that one of the beta 3 patches addressed a number of economic issues (specifically crystal) and there haven't been many complaints since. I also know that a particular version that went out had a large amount of data corrupted or missing even though the exe was correct. Try reinstalling from Stardock Central to make sure you have the absolute latest.
Reply #3 Top
B) its expensive, but you can buy crystal on the black market.
End of quote


[X] You didn't read Carbon016 post very well.

Sure, I can buy a bunch of crystal off the black market, but when you have three solar systems to defend, you need a lot of it, and so you end up clicking Diplomacy every thirty seconds to refill your crystal, run out of credits (2000 a pop!), then thirty seconds later refill it again.
End of quote




---------

Let's say you play on a large map and you've researched all mining technologies and build up culture everywhere to the max.

2 points crystal per second. Let's say the crystal asteroid at the homeworld is already depleted, so only 0.125 * 1.3 * 1.1 = 0.17875 from that one. The next ice planet is 2 jumps away 0.85 * 3 * 0.5 * 1.3 = 1.6575 from that one. You also have 2 crystal asteroids 3 and 4 jumps away. 2 * 0.5 * 1.3 * 0.7 = 0.975 and 2 * 0.5 * 1.3 * 0.5 = 0.65 and 10 crystal mines more then 4 jumps away. 10 * 0.5 * 1.3 * 0.25 = 1.625

The total you get is 5.08625. This is the more then the 2 points he reported, but when playing a large game it's easily possible that near asteroids are also depleted already, bringing the total resource income down pretty fast. (Then it's a good time to change the capital to a new area, where resources are still available.)

As you can see, the ice planet 2 jumps away is better then 3 ice planets which are more then 4 jumps away.

I do know that one of the beta 3 patches addressed a number of economic issues (specifically crystal) and there haven't been many complaints since.
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It's only because this beta is the technical beta, not the gameplay beta that I haven't made more criticism about the economy.
Reply #4 Top
I don't know how your numbers are so low. I'm guessing most of your crystal 'roids are depleted, and/or your capital is not in a very good position.

I'm also guessing you're not using refineries. I've played a game vs 4 AI in the same solar system, by the time I finished wiping them out, I had about 800-900 crystal ferried around in refinery ships at any given time, and that was with a refinery on every 3rd or 4th planet.

Refineries and trade posts *are* a part of the Sins economy, and need to be included in an analysis of the economic system, not just going on base income rates from depleted asteroids.

That said, yeah crystal suffers a lot in late game, but with trade stations and just the number of planets should net you enough credits to keep buying it on the market (and the market is getting an overhaul too).
Reply #5 Top
It's really just a matter of what kind of planets you have. I played a game recently where my empire was 4 terran worlds, and an asteroid. I spent the whole time buying both crystal and metal, since I had very little production of either, but a lot of credit income.
Reply #6 Top
Aha!

Never make backups for mod testing (boo, compatibility issues) and then expect them to magically patch themselves!

Glad to know this is fixed. And no, I didn't mod the crystal to come in at such a low speed, I'm not that dumb.

but with trade stations and just the number of planets should net you enough credits to keep buying it on the market (and the market is getting an overhaul too).
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Yeah, but opening the diplomacy menu every minute or so because you bought a huge fleet is annoying. Hotkey for resource buying, anyone?
Reply #7 Top
It's not a complete solution but to ease the pain until things are fixed up for you: you can hold down shift to buy/sell at greater quantities.
Reply #8 Top
I have had similar issues with metal and crystal. But my issue is random. Sometimes its one thing, sometimes its another...some games its fine some games its not. Perhaps I need to patch it I dont believe I have done that yet. Thanks for the advice ppl who replied to this thread and to the person who posted it: I the patch fixes the issues ur having.
Reply #9 Top
I have had similar issues with metal and crystal. But my issue is random. Sometimes its one thing, sometimes its another...some games its fine some games its not. Perhaps I need to patch it I dont believe I have done that yet. Thanks for the advice ppl who replied to this thread and to the person who posted it: I the patch fixes the issues ur having.
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This thread is about 5 months old and talked about an issue in the beta version of the game.

Reply #10 Top
i dont know what you mean i can go for ages suffering from all resources cause im just starting out but then ill end up with so much ill never run out and still get more.
Reply #11 Top
i dont know what you mean i can go for ages suffering from all resources cause im just starting out but then ill end up with so much ill never run out and still get more.
End of quote

The original post is now about nine months old.
Reply #12 Top
For reference, this thread was made when resource asteroids actually ran out, and you had to fill your logistics slots with refineries because it was the only way to get crystal end-game.

It doesn't apply at all anymore :P
Reply #13 Top
Necromancers make me sad :(