I played a couple of games last night and noticed a few things:

1. I was really disappointed with the new race. Its basically a carbon copy of the TEC. True there are some differences in abilities and stats but I would really expected at least one or two unique ship types; until late game both races play exactly the same. In my opinion this is really a game killer. Replay potential goes way down when each race has the same feel.

2. The AI is still really, really bad. For example, in one game I played the AI spent 45 mins sending forces of 4-5 frigates into my heavily defended home system. It didn't change tactics of build anything else until I started attacking its worlds rather then colonizing.

The AI also sent its capital ship to attack my home system early in every game. This generally put it well behind me since it slowed down its colonization.

The combat AI is also still poor. The fighters seem to be working better but the planet attacking ships still wander through enemy fleets and defenses to attack planets and ships have questionable targeting like when my Jarrasul fires its gravity missiles at a hanger.

3. The AI does not defend against culture at all on easy and medium. As an experiment I built only two media centers on a medium map. These two structures were enough to eventually take over 5-6 planets. In fact only one AI actually built a cultural structure to counter mine and that was only after I had taken over half his planets.

4. The tech tree needs to be thinned down. There are still a lot of useless techs in it. For example I would never take increased population growth or resistance to bombardment over a weapon or economy tech.

5. Ships other then frigates are still questionable in my mind. The game needs some type of medium attacker ship to bridge the gap between your starting combat ships and the last cruiser you research. It also annoys me that the first cruisers you get are all support ships. I want big ships to blow things up with, not repair my ships or whatever. It would also be nice if cruisers were powerful enough to actually be worth the time and effort required to produce them.

6. The Vasari green triangle attack needs to go. Its very ugly and totally out of place among all the other weapon effects.

The big AI overhaul wasn't ready for Beta 4 so the AI is still "not that good", although I felt that I had a harder time against the hard AI.

But I second most of the people's concern about the Vesari. I don't like to say that because the game and the companies involved are so great in every other aspect but the current TEC/Vesari destinction is very poor. TEC feels like it should, the Vesari are like a TEC sub-faction that specialized in phase-tech.

At least the graphics and the sounds are good so far...

Those help... a lot.

Is known and noted to be poor, with most of the AI improvements going into the initial Beta 4 was just for some basic ability to control/use abilities of Vasari ships. This was noted in the change log



They appear to be different from your play style, but they are far from useless.

Didn't read the topic, so these are probably already stated.


Khoroks cross (whatever it’s called) preview image still has the orignal name (kharaks)

VAS just feels like the TEC with different models and descriptions. Give some ships different roles! Or at least mix the order of them up =[

1: Have auto-placement turned off
2: choose a building to build, but don’t select where it goes
3: Turn on auto-placement
4: pick the building icon again, so it auto-places
5: You can not right click to remove the first order to build the building.
(Pretty much canceling the building-location with right click doesn't work anymore)

Ships are slightly transparent during hyperspace (varasri scout at least is)

Crystal on the black market must be sold in 100 increments (But due to other factors like this, I guess it's scripted, but I miss the old way)

Kratos moves jerkly when near enemy units

Cutthroats pirate shields don't protect all of it (when it's hit, and the shield appears, it only covers part of the ship. a large portain of the back engines aren't in the shield.

AI asks “Why am I here, and you’re not” when he hasn’t accepted vision

Pirates go out of gravity well chasing ships. Appears they chased a tradeship that had no orders. I also experienced natural AI to do the same.

Giving credits to allies has no sound (sound be nice to have it, accidentally gave them 500 extra when I thought it wasn’t reading some of the clicks :o)

When the AI asks “Go and hit this guy for me please” create a ping at one of the planets he wants you to attack. Or at least his name, would be nice.

VAS missile defense should have a longer range, so it doesn't feel like you guys slapped a new model+description to the orignal TEC cannnon defense =[

Using Z axis is ignored when hyper-spacing. You come out of hyperspace on the main level where buildings are made.

Some textures are low quality. But this is probably due to it being a beta

When a took a planet over with culture (last enemy's planet in the game) I got an error saying something about a planet's strings missing. I had to 'break' this error in order to play again.

AI don't 'leave' the game (name grayed out) after you click 'Continue', unally your allies, and destroy their planets.

The TEC radio center's icon bothers me. I keep thinking he brought a cap ship in!

From what I've seen, all ship shields register directional impacts. Missiles hitting the front a Kol will only light up its front shields, for example.

I agree mostly with what annatar said before. though the vasari feel a lot like the TEC on the surface, their abilites will probably give them a different play style. but I personally still think they are too similar, most ships are essentially copies with each other with diferent abilities and a bit stronger. for capital ships the difference is even less, which I dislike. make them stronger, but more expensive, also the officer upgrades and give them less in total like only 12 compared to the TEC's 16. that way, in a given game, the TEC will have more, but slightly weaker capships than the vasari. for the flagship option vasari ships can start at a lower lvl to balance it out.

what really put me off was what some already mentioned, the very similar build structure. vasari could for example only have one lab type, which could be all the more expensive. they could use different planets for different purposes, like a desert planet for the max population and the terran one for fleet points and so on. also, use of ressources could be switched, like the vasari using more metal than crystal for research and more crystal than metal for ships (i.e. compared to the tec the use the other ressources respectively). that way, different planets have different values and purposes for different races. in the extreme, vasari as survival specialists could colonize planets that TEC cannot colonize at all, possibly gas giants or some new planet type.

they could also rely on different resources, like they have special raider ships to capture slaves and bring them to their worlds by which they increase their capacity. also, why would the vasari collect taxes? seems more like a human concept than one fitted for a race fighting for survival. a very bold move could be to kill the credit resource for them altogether and put something else in.

ok, some of the stuff is probably pointless, but I want to have mentioned it.

btw, as some others pointed out, the pop increase rate upgrades are very useful. a fully upgraded terran planet has 300 + pop and you want to have it upgraded as fast as possibly to have it start generating creds. well watch how long it takes to go from 10 to 300, you will crave for a tech to speed it up

all for now.

I also agree that those green crescent shaped shots from the Vasari cap ships are pretty blech in appearance.

I was seriously expecting the following:

TEC: I like the look of their cap ships except the Marza dreadnaught. For the most part I expect them to have mainly projectile based weaponry and missle barrages, with limited beam/laser technology.

VASARI: These guys are supposed to be ridiculously powerful (yet being chased by something even more powerful). So I expect to see some amazing shield technology, but perhaps less hull strength on their ships because they focused their efforts on technology to prevent shots from ever reaching the hulls. Also mostly beam/laster/phaser/photon missle type techs. But higher production costs and/or more fleet capacity taken up. So smaller fleets but massively more powerful.

ADVENT: Probably more balanced in offense/defense out of all the races. Have a very sleek, aerodynamic look to their ships, etc.



While I enjoy the capital ship designs, I've been less than impressed with the frigates and cruisers. Their designs just aren't really grabbing me. The Kodiak Cruisers weaponry also doesn't look like it's a heavy firepower vessel to me, with it's little spraying gattling type guns.

I'd really like to see a complete redesign of the frigate and cruisers. But again, amazing work on the capital ships and the majority of their weaponry effects.

I suppose as long as this game is mod friendly we'll be all set to get to play what we want eventually anyway.

I know it's been stated a few times, but I have to put in my opinion about the AI. I usually don't have the time to get into a multiplayer game so I usually do 2x2 matches with the computer.

That said, the AI is relatively terrible. After my first two or so games I haven't played any games without all the AI's set on anything other than hard. I have yet to lose a game or even been seriously threatened by the AI yet, and I don't think it's because I have great skills. I'll just briefly mention a few things since I know it's due for an overhaul anyways. The computer rarely sends in a fleet of any size thats capable of taking over a defended system. They also take far too long to research long range jumps in the multi-system games.

On a side note, one of the biggest problems i've seen especially later in the game on larger maps is the incredible flood of information you get and how nearly useless it is. Especially if you get psidar or advanced psidar. I'm terribly afraid to even use that new vasari skill that lets you know whenever ANY ship jumps just due to the information spam that would represent. I don't have a good solution in mind, but there has to be some way to make this information more organized and useful.

Also the messages that AI computers send you are relatively useless. The "why am I here and you aren't" is the most strikingly so since I generally have no idea where they are even talking about. The "go hit the guy thats doing this to me" is also in about the same category.

I have noticed another small bug:

You can´t remove the planetary reinforcment upgrade after you issued it.
normally a right click on the planetary upgrades cancels the thing in progress, but doesn´t work with the HP up.

I have to agree about the Vasari not feeling like the "oh s**t!" enemy everyone was expecting. I like their ship styles. Some look pretty menacing, but as what was said each ship is essentially a TEC counterpart role wise. Though their method may be a little bit different.

I think in the Vasari's case less should be more. For example..

Less styles of cap ships, but the few cap ships available will have multiple roles, better weapons/shields/armour, and more ability's (i know this would mean losing a couple of those excellent models). Like the carrier for example. Along with what ability's it already has, add a colonization, or more buffs/debuffs. Give it more shield hit points, but increase its fleet supply to 60 instead of 40, or make them use 2 cap ship crew instead of 1. A Vasari carrier should be like a Sova, and Dunov combined, and way outclass the Sova in every aspect. Perhaps even outclass the Kol. Along with any other TEC cap ship. However they should be very few in numbers. So a Vasari cap ship loss should be devastating.

The Vasari frigates i cant really say if they need changing, or not. If anything do the same as with caps by buffing their hitpoints, but nerfing the fleet supply.

The weapon effects like what was said need to be changed. Especially that green sickle. I think the main issue with the effect is that its flat a 2d graphic. Perhaps if it was a little more "fuzzy", and had triangles for a front/back view like other projectile effects it wouldnt look so bad.

Why do the Vasari need 2 shipyards? shouldn't they be advanced enough to be able to build all of their ships efficiently from 1 single shipyard? Again less is more here. Same with research facility's. Each Vasari research station should count as 2 TEC stations, and be able to research both empire, and military.

LOL@WTF do the Vasari need with trader stations? They dont trade! They horde. Again less would be more here. an "Overseer" complex which spawns slaver ships that delivers credits, resources, and spreads culture (or fear in the case of the Vasari). You have only 1 model for both the trader, and refinery ship so this only makes sense. Plus you can get rid of the broadcast center.

The TEC should be immune to the cultural effects of alien broadcast centers. The aliens look like bugs -this is not a complaint, I'm sure they look appealing to other aliens and er...bugs.

On the other hand I'm sure given the opportunity the aliens would want to mate with our women   and so would be vunerable to over 90% of our advertising media and thus would be highly vunerable to TEC broadcast centers.

Look what happened to the aliens in Macross!

Who could forget "Mars Attacks"

Could you please provide the specific model(s) you are referring to?

I for one welcome our new insect overlords.  I look forward to toiling in their underground sugar mines.

Confirmed, the Emergency Infrastructure upgrade cannot be cancelled in progress.

(A natural extension of the refinery system they already had for resource collection - as to why they trade at all, read below)

Remember, the Vasari have been locked down in Trader space for longer than expected. This has forced them to adapt in order to survive. When any faction in Sins taking over a planet, they are taking control over an existing population of humans. This is human space and for the most part it's already been colonized. It is in the Vasari's best interest to make use of existing resources (aka the human work force and infrastructure) in order to serve their own needs and this means hijacking some of the human's way of doing things. It's all fine to wipe them out as you go, which is what they did when they first arrived but that doesn't work when you realize you are stuck and you need help. Far easier and less time consuming to enslave the existing people than to breed a whole new civilization of your own kind.

 

Also, I don't believe this has been mentioned. But the voice work on the Vasari is pretty awful. It sounds like some Dungeon Master using his Darth Vader voice changer on low or something.

And having the voice say "how sinister" when I click something makes the Vasari appear even lamer than just being a copycat of the TEC.

Also, there should be an option to turn off system messages or voices. Do you realize how annoying it becomes on a huge-random map when every two seconds you're hearing "a bounty has changed on blah blah blah". It just keeps going and going and really detracts from the gameplay.

I'm sorry to be such a naysayer recently. This game definetely has promise, but I believe it needs significant gameplay tweaks in order to provide it. I absolutely love the capital ship models and most of the weapons affects though.   

Some textures are low quality. But this is probably due to it being a beta

Could you please provide the specific model(s) you are referring to?

They aren't super-low quality, but when zoomed up the textures sometimes look alittle less detailed on Vasari ships than they do on TEC.

The ships I noticed it on were mainly Vasari Cap Ships, mainly where the red meets the hull (not the red near the engines)

I'll get a picture of it tonight if I play again.

those are temporary.

Thanks for the details Windexglow.  A screen would be great.

Go replay and pay more attention Yes, the units are very similar, but calling then identical ("Carbon Copy" my rear end!) is ridiculous. If nothing else, the different cap ship powers creates a different play style -- and a little research produces a much, much larger difference. Self-healing for the Cobalt / Kodiak "analogs", anyone?

AI hasn't really been touched yet, too -- all they did was create a (basic) Vasari AI and touch up the retreat routines a little.



Good news! Cruisers are most assuredly worth the time and effort to produce them! I haven't played around with the Vasari ones yet, but the TEC ones are all nice. The Carrier is great for stellar control, the Hoshiko and Cielo can really boost the longevity of your forces, and the Kodiak is one nasty mo'fo!

Oh by the way Ron, I managed to sneak another peek at the Vasari support cruisers.. the Cielo analog has the default ability to infuse temporary hull hp or somesuch. I don't remember the exact description, but the bonus hp is supposed to disappear once that much damage was done to the ship. It's late and it probably didn't make much sense, but the Vasari cruisers to have a repair-ish type ability

oh hell no

go read both the "Vasari are not tanks!" and the "Vasari underpowered?!?!" threads
and take an extra dosage of that riddlin, you need to pay attention.

I cannot say anything except taht once again, you must not be using them correctly

the Vasari use theirs to interdict and weaken select enemy forces (say, by stopping the one cap ship from leaving the GW while the rest of the fleet hyperspaces out) where the TEC are focused on healing and buffing, they are both well worth their investment, unless of course you overbinge.

its self healing, but it comes at a huge cost to mobility. again symptotic (not a word!) of the Vasari fight style.

heres the thing
ONLY THE FRIGS ARE (anywhere near) IDENTICLE!

*gasp*!!!

its TRUE!

I would go out on a limb here and say that the Devs so well differentiated the Vasari from the TEC that this could easily hold starcraft by the balls in a head on contest. why isnt it apparent? because it doesnt shine at you, the differences are all in their technologies and their capital ships, which may seem like a small portion of the game but are in fact, the whole thing.

so in effect: kudos to the devs for making a game with races so differentiated with such few tweaks. I hope you can do the same to the Advent.

Unfortunately, the diversity so far is Warcraft 2 level, at best. Identical Units, slightly different abilities. That was fine ten years ago, but it's completely bad and boring for the 21st Century.

I agree the races are too similar, this was a big disappointment. They're coming from across the galaxy, why would they have the same styles of warfare? See the ancient times of the Earth, the variety of combat styles resulting from distance (slowing influence on each other) and different terrain causing different styles to be superior and therefore dominant, from the ambush by light forces in the forests via the phalanx/testudo turtling warfare around the mediterranean to the mobile firepower of cavalry archers and the super heavy armoured cavalry of the east. With the Vasari coming from somewhere with little to no contact with humans, they should be quite different indeed.

The research does give different abilities, but in the greater part of the game you're not going to have all that researched, so they work quite similarly as they have all the same roles among their ships and the same buildings. It definitely doesn't fit well with the description of TEC being a trader thing with little focus on war, while the Vasari are nomads geared for it.

I accept the rationale of the Vasari adapting to the human economy as they take over the existing population, so that it is not much different from TEC's there. However, this makes no sense when you need to completely destroy the existing infrastructure (and population!) of an enemy world before seeding the world once more with a colony/migrator frigate. It just doesn't fit together.