not if you take costs into account, vasari have minimal benefit for major cost increases, not to mention almost all of their units are almost twice as expensive as their TEC equivalent

the result being yeah, two battlefleets being equal the TEC might come out a bit on top (those caps are indespensable) but in terms of economic flow the TEC win every time, hands down

which is why they have the distinct disadvantage of being slow lumbering brutes.

pff, if we only considered how strong the cap ships are I still say the costs are insane, because 1 on 1 the vasari capships cant beat a few kods where a TEC ship would breeze through

oh, so the Lore said so is now a valid reasoning skill?
the lore says they're great at running, also says their fleet is "degrading" "ancient" and "malkept"
or something along those lines

I dont know how to phrase this any simpler:
you must not be doing it correctly.

Anyone mentioned the fact that Vasari Trade Ships carry more net worth.

really? are you sure its not just because of their higher tech levels?
either way I doubt it makes up for the amazing 30-40% price hike over the TEC equivalents, neither does the power of their units.


so heres the case for the Vasari not being tanks



The Evidence

Cap Ships

-Cap Ships appear to have multiple uses: ex: vasari carrier, used both as a carrier and as the sole healer of the capital ships

-Arkator (sp?) scout cap ship with high survivability, invincibility, speed boosts, portable gate network node and espionage. need I really say more?

-Abilities are massively toned to defense: even offensive abilities like disrupter strikes are used to defend Vasari ships

-Shields are the main defense, despite many ways to get around them (Dunov comes to mind, akkan dissabling regen to) suggests cap-on-cap combat isnt a focus

-Attack abilities are overwhelmingly meant to attack a few targets, not many (very few things like the Marza rad bomb or missile swarm)

-Few widespread buffs: nothing like the Akkan's ceasefire, again suggests lack of large military combat focus

-Radially placed weapons: weapons are not focused in front ala marza, kol, dunov akkan or sova, placed around as if for defense rather than one on one offense

-Numerous abilities focused on razing planets quickly, displaced over more than one capital ship, planet sucking, siege turret, siege design etc.

-Siege ship is the prettiest, not solid evidence, but it means something.

-Cap Ships are simply all around weaker

-Numerous "invincibility" abilities that still allow movement, but restrict all offensive actions in favor of defense

Cost to Performance ratio

-All ships are dramatically more expensive than TEC equivalents for nominal attack upgrade, excluding Cap ships, which are far weaker

-Fleet cost points are through the roof, 7 as opposed to TEC's 5 (light frigs), 6 as opposed to 4 (missile frigs) and 8 as opposed to 7 (colony frigs), again equivalents (cap ships) are much weaker -disclaimer- I havent absolutely checked these numbers, might be off by one or two, but the Vasari are certainly more expensive

Phase Gates

-Extremely inexpensive

-Can be upgraded to be nearly twice as fast as normal phase lanes

-Portable node on the super fast, invulnerable, strong scout cap ship that bypasses phaseblocks

-Purposefully restricted to later techs (perhaps too much so, makes Vasari too weak on small maps)

-Numerous abilities related to phasespacing

-Can be placed anywhere due to tactical status

-Gravity Tolerance upgrade significantly reduces radius required to run or to jump in, allowing faster strikes and retreats

-Calls dark fleet in, wasting extra fleet points to make a powerful impromptu army, almost perfect counter to rebels

Intelligence

-Highly tuned sensors give you perfect description of all phasespace activity in the entire game, allows Vasari to effectively avoid large groups by choosing safer pathways, even if those planets havent even been descovered. Also allows Vasari to keep track of battles and alliances that they have no part in, also is an amazing warning about pirates

Defensive structures

-Missiles are strong, cheap and allow bypass of shields

Weapon systems

-Strong emphasis on focus fire, esp. phase missiles

-Cite cap ship section

Cruisers

-Heavy emphasis on mobility and phase interdiction/shield disruption

-Cruisers lack weaponry, but are heavily offensive based

-in grav well hyperspacing, used for assassination missions on a fleeing fleet? suggests attacks against unprepared opponents, NOT a well fortified base

Hiatus

if you really want more fine, but I'm done listing evidence for now.





PROOF OF CONCEPT


TO COME!

TEC also have more repair functionality between hoshinkos, cielos and dunovs. They get floored in even numbers with the supports thrown in.

Aside from possible problems surviving that long, phase gates are a defacto win condition right now. If you can get them, you're now pumping out free armies from every planet and can defend with your entire army, at any planet. Attack ends up the same way, with your entire army, from any planet. The TEC will be able to defend with far less thanks to all those support capabilities, but they are going to have to.

Pre-phase gate, I think I could kill myself no problem, since it's 9 research stations that probably means I'd win every game against myself on a small map.

that i just tested, and both of them carried 65 credits. plus the trade bonus due to distance were 4.6 for Vasari and 3.4 for TEC. i do think the TEC should carry more as they are the traders.


Then how can i put this simpler... show us a replay

Its fine with all the "words" but when used its alot more different and especially against other human players. So unless you actually show us how to correctly use it, id say your just putting fine word on something thats not actually working.

Not necessarily, the Vasari have to have good resource allocation in order to quickly profit from any venture. Plus I think its a balance against the high prices of the Vasari.

The Credits are only a human resource that the Vasari has adapted to, and they are (according to the Lore) gathering resources so they can keep going. So the what makes sense is the Vasari is better at gathering resources the TEC is better at trading as they have been doing nothing else for the last 10.000 years.

They haven't existed for 10,000 years...

Can we stop calling ship formations armies and call the fleets or squadrons instead? thanks

I at first thought the Vasari underpowerd, untill I realised I was playing them the wrong way. I tried to play the Vasari the way I play the TEC, head on mass attacks, russki style! But the devs did not have that in mind as I see. I think its brilliant

woops, my bad.

correct that to a 1000 years instead


can you elaborate what you mean you did instead? and have it been tested against another player online? also a replay can help even further

I can't find where I can download beta 4. It's so annoying. Can anyone tell where it is?

multianna dammit you dont seem to get it, I cant prove it until we play a proper game, of which NO ONE PLAYS

my point being if you're playing MP with a bunch of people on a compact map (your favorite) and you're Vasari, you're a complete dolt.

MULTIANNA DAMMIT

I seriously doubt even ONE person has gotten to civ 9 in a multiplayer game with the Vasari in one day. Most people barely get past civ 2 or 3 in multiplayer games, compact that with that they need to have gotten civ 9, bought a ton of phasegates, and then started expanding. (on fast getting well bunkered can take an hour)

the Vaz have a huge dependance on having a LOT of land to do research, its an issue the devs need to fix because CURRENTLY the Vasari are simply too land expensive to be used in classic multiplayer!!!

So unless they are played in a proper way and get special maps, they cant be good. Talk about unfairness for the Vasari


I dont see why i should limit myself to a race because of the map.

That shows that you seem to misunderstand what it's about. This thread is about the question if the Vesari are too weak. I not only think that they are not destinctive enough as I said in other threads but also too weak in general. They may be very good in a loooong multiplayer game with many people playing but as I said that is far from enough.

Hey, the Vasari are much more powerful then the TEC. Their defense turret makes 30 more damage (150 vs. 120) then the TEC one! Else it's an absolute perfect copy with every stat the same.

Did you forget their defense fires its missiles in volleys?

Yeah, but you forgot the chance to penetrate shields on that Vandenburg.

That makes absolutely no difference to the damage though.

But I have to admit, I was a bit sloppy.

Vasari:
DamagePerBank:FRONT 150.000000
PreBuffCooldownTime 7.500000
150 / 7.5 = 20dps

TEC:
DamagePerBank:FRONT 120.000000
PreBuffCooldownTime 6.000000
120 / 6 = 20dps

So the dps of them is the same. They're even more similar then I've thought.



Which is useless in the lower percent are (>20%) and even with the full 30% researched I doubt it's value. Especially against the repair juggernauts that are capital ships.

Haha what a surprise, nice discovery Vandenburg

The Vasari have too many similarities to the TEC... I now fear how similar the Advent will be

*sigh* any one of you who thinks the TEC and Vasari are even remotely the same beyond civ 5, you're hopeless. I'm done explaining this to you.

why do you think I said that you were right about them being TOO tech dependant?

I rest my case.

good, as your not proving anything.


...

I resist the urge to give you an example of cybrans on a small, hilly map.

maybe we have a bit of a missunderstanding here. making the ships more powerful isnt the same as making the race per se more powerful. did you get that?

the vasari are all about preservation, so it would make sense for them to build sturdier, stronger ships that they can more easily get out of harms way again. but that doesnt automatically make them superior in head on contest with an equal resource investment by the tec, so you still have to play differently and employ different strategies.

Well said


Well said again yeah what you said makes sense, as they are 2 different races, one old and strong, and the other rich and high in productivity