AI's SA is FUBAR

... wtf?

from Sins Forums
So I'm sitting back and not trying very hard, never building anything more than light frigates, and seem to be able to whoop any number of AI in any scenario. I was thinking perhaps one of the skill levels was broken, so I went to go fiddle with it - I had it set to (E)xpert, so I cycled through to (M)edium and (H)ard and I was wondering why the heck there was no novice setting.... then it slowly dawned on me...

OK so a week passes, and now I'm playing on (H)ard (damnit!) and though I actually have to TRY, I am still whooping butt in all scenarios. I know the difficulties faced in programming a good non-cheating AI, so I'll chip in my two cents in regards to what *I* am doing that the AI doesn't seem to be.

(1) The AI's Situational Awareness is fairly messed up. If I send a small decoy fleet to one end of the AI's empire, engaging his capital ship, while I send my real fleet to the other end of his empire... actually capturing profitable planets, the AI seems reluctant to divert forces to the 'real' fight. The fight that matters.

similarly,

(2) The AI seems to fight just as hard for a dead asteroid as they do for a fully stocked terran planet. If I have reinforcements incoming that I think will turn the tide of the battle, I will retreat my currently engaged forces so that they may all fight together.

(3) I will often leave a 'bait planet' out in the open that the AI tries to tackle. Especially in early game when the AI doesn't seem to have any planetary-bombardment frigates, they will leave their fleet there trying to take out the planet (and my construction frigates) for 10, 20 minutes sometimes. This of course gives me ample distraction-free time to send my military units elsewhere or to build up a force to dislodge my opponent.

possibly the worst of the AI abilities,

(4) it's ability to make an educated guess on the outcome of a battle. I can usually glance at the battle and say - OK, we both have a Kol capital ship at full health, he has 22 light cobalts and I have 19 light cobalts. Time to retreat!.... The AI cannot make this decision when the tables are turned. The AI should do a simple "projected outcome" balancing the economic impact of the fight. The AI is PARTICULARLY bad at estimating it's chances of success against Valsari Missle Turrets (especially with several missle upgrades). If the AI comes out the loser, RETREAT and bolster the force with a few reinforcements and try again. If an OVERWHELMING force approaches, the AI retreats - but if it's a close fight it falters.

this is compounded because

(5) I focus-fire on the AI's capital ships first, causing severe economic impact. With even just 15+ light frigates joining cap ships in the fray, you can usually take them out before they retreat. Thanks to my surviviing capital ship's special abilities, I am able to take out the accompanying AI cobalts without taking too many losses. The AI rarely focus-fires on my cap ships, or if it does, I recognize it early enough to retreat my cap ship.

(6) Speaking of retreating cap ships, Once the enemy capship is dead I'm able to re-enter my damaged capship without fear of losing it. AI seems to rarely withdraw it's capships strategically; it either runs away, and STAYS away for quite some time, or it dies in my hands. The AI loses much too many capships and should be more willing to pull back, even if only for a few minutes (to escape my focus-fire).

(7) The AI doesn't seem to put much weight into economy. Most games like this I play the capitalistic way: make as much money as you possibly can, as fast as you can, because you can BUY anything else you need once you have the cash. I usually end my small one-star campaigns with nearly 200,000 bucks and nothing to spend it on. The cash reserve comes in handy though - in the heat of the battle, I'm able to churn out replacements for every ship I've lost from a planet one or two jumps away, essentially leaving the enemy fighting an invincible force. Looking at the allied AI players I sometimes have, they seem to spend every cent they have the first chance they can get. I like to keep enough in the bank (especially late-game) to entirely replace my fleet should it become destroyed.

because of the this lack of focus the AI has on economy,

(8) It seems every time I wipe out an AI fleet, I can count on not being disutrbed by that AI force again for 10-15 minutes. Immediately I'll round up all my forces on that end of the star system and move it to the other border, where I can feel safe in knowing the next attack (from another AI I had previously defeated) will come next. I am essentially able to 'turtle' with a single defensive fleet across a star system.

(9) AI has a habit of hanging out in my border systems, where I invariably have several defensive structures, instead of moving *just one jump farther in* to the jucier planets with no defensive structures. They scout them all the time (I ignore scout ships) so they *KNOW* there's a big prize ripe for the taking, but they seem bull-headed and unwilling to move forward unless they can take out my 6 missile turrets and 3 squadron hangars first. *rolls eyes*

Hopefully that'll help the devs make the AI a tiny bit harder Right now I'm satisfying myself by simply making the teams 4-on-2 and trying to keep my teammate alive (usually by feeding him cash regularly); so I am still having a lot of fun with the game and love it to bits.
12,121 views 39 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Ah and one more thing.

(10) I don't do it much any more to add to difficulty, but I usually try to make peace with one bordering AI while I launch attacks on my opposite border. Makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that while I'm decimating the enemy on my one-front war, the AI of the peaceful nation will allow me to slowly build a giant fleet in his home system, and right after I think my opposite war is un-losable I cancel the pact and immediately have a nice juicy homeworld to take over.

I had thought about various 'rules' the game could enforce to stop this from happening - like in GalCiv or Civilizations, where a declaration of war boots your forces out of the enemy's territory. But this seemed uncomfortably 'gamey' to me; but then I realized I would stop my behaviour if the AI was doing it to *ME* too.

Have the friendly AI dump an equal value worth of ships in MY territory as I do in his. Then I won't be so willing to impulsively declare war on him and lose all *MY* planets in the process. mutually assured destruction.. delicious.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
BTW, devs have stated that they love lists like that
Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
the AI will be vastly improved
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
uhhh, just so you know, its Easy, Medium, and Hard
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
then it slowly dawned on me...

OK so a week passes, and now I'm playing on (H)ard (damnit!)
End of quote


Yep I know now...
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Yes, we do love lists like this I literally copy and paste them to a massive AI analysis document to make sure everything get covered in the ongoing AI overhaul.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
i have a suggestion blair, you should copy and paste them metaphorically!



god i love these forums...

how a person posts:
1) "AI IS FUBAR!!!"
2) *gives a list on how to repair it*
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
hehe.. I mainly said FUBAR because I needed yet another acronym to complete my tri-fecta of awesome.

but what use is the forum when you don't supply solutions to the problems you complain about?
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
well, I have something to add:

I was focus firing on the AI capships and it was doing a fair job at retreating them in time. most of the time I would have to chase them across one or two grav wells to finally take them down. they might be even a bit more cautious, but thats a positive.

a big fat negative though is that they don't use repair stations to quickly fill up their damaged health again. seriously, I saw one AI flagship come repeatedly with about 60 - 70 % hp and shields and with a fair sized fleet. if they had had a repair station to bring it to full health, I would have been in big trouble.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
LOL, and i was waiting for the long, and drug out reply's of "We already know about this!" (inserts multi's "This is BE-TA!!!!")

Yes, nice looong detailed list are a very good thing.

In another thread we covered some of the situation awareness. The scattering of AI ships in a grav well. Going after unimportant targets totally ignoring the enemy fleet, or wall of defenses that is in their path. That is what i would say... Ummm ... Errr a total lack of situational awareness.

I found out the hard way in multiplayer that a more effective tactic is to wipe out the frigates 1st. Especially any flak frigates floating around. Frigates are squishy, and easy to kill with focused fire, and with them gone a cap ship has no chance.

The AI retreating seems to be a mixed bag depending on the player. I have seen the AI do nothing, but retreat even when it had the advantage. I didnt matter what difficulty level. You knock out an AI cap ship then watch the re-enactment of benny hill, or monty python with everyone screaming RUN AWAY!! Even in beta 4 the pirates put up a better fight, because they cant leave the system they are attacking.

I agree the AI needs more focus on infrastructure. Not just building random structures in any given world. Which it seems to be doing now. If the AI is low on credits focus on trade ports. If low on resources build refinery's along with the prerequisite structures.

I also noticed that when the AI has broadcast centers researched it still tries to spam them for a culture win. Thats not a bad thing. What is a bad thing is that by building 3, or 4 BC's at ONE world. The AI ignores more important structures like more research centers to advance further up the tech tree, or a refinery/trade port for economy. To fix this i guess you would have to limit the AI to build only 1 BC per world. 1 BC at each controlled planet is just as if not more effective than 1 world with many broadcast centers.

You only need ONE phase jump inhibitor. Why does the AI build 2 or 3?

The AI still tries to block jump lanes with defensive structures. Even though that tactic is pretty much ineffective now due to the jump inhibitor nerf. The AI needs to build a decent perimeter around its world to stop siege frigs, and place a few missile/gauss turrets around trade ports, refinery's, and other key structures. I see no issues on hanger placements. The AI also builds way too many repair centers. 3 should be enough. Ive seen worlds with 5 repair structures.

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

You only need ONE phase jump inhibitor. Why does the AI build 2 or 3?
End of quote


In case the first one goes bye-bye?
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
Another fun one (in handy add-to-list format):

In a recent game, the two ai players attacked a massively fortified asteroid (full tactical cap used in a mutually supporting ball of defenses) instead of a defenseless (well, I did add a turret later to defend the resourcing platforms from a cobalt that wandered by, but still) terran which was open to any attack that wanted to go through a gas planet. However, I would like to congratulate the AIs on how they consistently coordinated their attacks. That was very frustrating. However, when the AI sees that I'm using no caps under level 6, it should plow some credits into training, because the level 1 ships they keep sending aren't cutting it, and they're annoying me because a kodiak is worth more xp despite having half the health.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top


You only need ONE phase jump inhibitor. Why does the AI build 2 or 3?


In case the first one goes bye-bye?
End of quote


Why does that make any sense? If your enemy has the time and firepower to take out one phase inhibitor...he'll probably be able to take out 2 or 3. The AI would be better off building hangers or defense structures...or more ships...or a better economy...


Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top


Why does that make any sense? If your enemy has the time and firepower to take out one phase inhibitor...he'll probably be able to take out 2 or 3. The AI would be better off building hangers or defense structures...or more ships...or a better economy...
End of quote


I generally don't do it myself, but if you have the points to do it without crippling yourself, and your enemy has a habit of flooding you with frigates JUST to kill it and bypass the system...

Agreed, its a situational thing, but it can be useful.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
I have never seen the AI just primary an inhibitor, and jump out bypassing a system completely. I have seen pirates try to do that before the PJI nerf. This is something a human player might do as well depending on how well fortified the area around the inhibitor is. I would like to see the AI try a surgical strike, and move on. This way multiple inhibitors would be tactically useful. I would also like to see a lvl 15 advanced PJI research that brings back the old beta 1 PJI, but thats another topic altogether.
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
This is something a human player might do as well depending on how well fortified the area around the inhibitor is.
End of quote


Yup -- its geared against human players that "feature" is. I don't deny it

This way multiple inhibitors would be tactically useful.
End of quote


How does changing the AI make it useful?
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Ok, There will be some people that will probably be unable, or unwilling to play online. So all they will have as a challenge in Sins is the AI. I dont plan on spending very much time playing online. My old, and arthritic hands just cant keep up with you young ones For the few people that for whatever reason wont be able to do multiplayer. Why not at least try to make the AI as much of a challenge as possible.

How will it not be useful if an AI does a precision strike to remove a jump inhibitor? or Phase Gate? This will force you to think "hmmmm should i build 2 PJI's just to be sure?" If the AI managed to do that, knock out your PJI, and bypass a key choke point. It could be disastrous for your empire, because its true target could be that undefended asteroid, or crystal world with the nice shiny refinery you just built. This is assuming of course you have no fleet close by to intercept the AI. Even if you did there is still a small chance they will break through, and escape, and you will have to chase em. That sounds like fun to me

Perhaps a surprise siege frigate suicide zerg rush. Can you kill them all before your world is bombed to oblivion? AI will scout, and see that a certain border world is lightly defended, and think hmmm lets bomb the hell out of it just on general principle. Then start pumping out siege frigs like a pez dispenser.

These are some of the things i would like to see the AI try to do. Surprise us every once in a while. Instead of AI jumps in damn near ALWAYS where you have a fleet stationed, and screams "RUN AWAY!!" or your fleet jumps in to an AI world, AI sees steamroll fleet, and screams "RUN AWAY!!". Then hands you its worlds on a silver platter. Rinse, and repeat.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
For the few people that for whatever reason wont be able to do multiplayer. Why not at least try to make the AI as much of a challenge as possible.
End of quote


They are planning that, dont'cha know

To rephrase my comment: How does changing the AI change the inherent value of a given structure? Obviously, if you can only play singleplayer, then the answer becomes obvious -- I'm thinking in terms of multiplayer, and I'll admit it.
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

The ai's tech priorities seems a bit off...in one game , I had colonized my system and half the next middle before the 3 AI teammates (on hard) got out of their own solars and went for me.

Experience is that AI's rarly are good with situational awareness.

I HEAVILY recommend more scripting, LESS klever AI and make it so that it cheats somewhat at harder levels.
Don't be one of those companies that gives us a weakass AI cause you refuse to have it cheat. Unless this game has a kick ass SP opponent, it will be shelved instantly like say Space Empires V, while Sword of the Stars has an actual AI that kicks ASS atm.

Sure it cheats, but boy does it kick ass....

Few hints.

Make it so that when it has achieved certain 'power' levels, it always sends 'fleets' out not just single attacks...and make sure its scripted to have tons of escort with it when it moves.

hope it helps

Janster
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
Wait, you want a cop-out instead of a "real" AI? Yuck!
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
Cheating AI never makes a game great Predictable AI never makes a game great, either. Eventually every AI pattern is explored and you learn how to deal with it, but heavy scripting makes it so you figure it out even faster
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
I dont want to see "scripted", or "cheating" AI's. Like Annatar said it becomes way to predictable, and easily countered. Like Homeworlds AI (it is both scripted, and it cheats). I do want the AI to react to what it sees. Like a lightly defended world that is easy pickings. I also want it to be unpredictable, and launch surprise attacks where you would least expect it to do so. Forcing you not to use a single steamroll fleet. I also want the AI to stand up, and fight when it is being attacked.

I know it sounds like we are beating a dead horse with this issue, but this close to the game being finalized i think things like these should be emphasized. It is true the AI has significantly improved since beta 1, but as these threads show, and the dev's own admissions it still needs some work. This game is GOOD. We just want to make sure it is the best it can be
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top

Even though I realize nobody will pay attention to this...

Don't get all worked up about the AI sucking. We told everyone the new AI didn't make it into the initial release of Beta 4. Ironclad is currently slaving away on the new AI and when it's ready it will be many times better than what everyone's seen so far.

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
You guys did encourage posting concrete points where the AI can be improved, though. Good thing too, as even though I'm sure you are good guys working on it, you probably can't think of all the things that a multitude of players will come up with.
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
Well... if the AI will be anything like that from GalCiv 2 or better.. That will make my pants tight

I don't play online. Damn connection...