Would the research system for Frigates/Cruisers have worked like this?

Great mod idea.

I'm not sure thats practicable. It might be doable, but it would change the dynamic from more worlds meaning more ships, to more research meaning more ships -- not really a "fair" dynamic IMO, much less good. Now, if it simply multiplied the effective fleet points for a given "class" of vessel... (Or divided the FP cost!)

I never said anything about changing fleet supply points, so it doesn't just change the dynamic from more planets more ships to more research more ships. Maybe “for example” the 1st Frigate stage gives 20 ships and 1st Cruiser gives 10, but you still have to hold the planets to get the fleet supply.

The “correct current dynamic” is more planets more ships + more research more variety. This would be more planets more ships + more research more ships + more variety from the beginning.

All this does is consolidating the need to research each individual ship of a class into one line. In a way it is trading a little bit of the freedom to build how much you want for the freedom to build what you want. That is the key point I’m making with this idea and not taking fleet size away from the planets and giving it to research alone.


Beside the point, because your disagreement isn’t really related to what I’m talking about (I’m sure you will disagree with whatever) but how is something that is universal not fair? Maybe in your opinion it’s not good if everyone gets $5.00, but just because you feel cheated doesn’t mean it’s not fair. 

Rhaw you're missing what ron is saying: people with more planets gain no real bonus from this, instead they have to function on the same number of ships as the smaller people, but with a LOT more ground to cover. there are some holes in his theory, but its still a solid complaint.

the analogy goes more like this: its not fair to take taxes based on % of income, some people who work harder give a lot more.

if I understand you correctly, what you want to is, eliminat all ship prototype research, but limit fleet size by both fleet poins and research. so while you have upgraded planets for fleet cap, you may still need to research to take advantage of it.

if that is what you want, I won't like it. we already have to spend money for fp to gain more capacity for ships, adding a research layer to spend even more money to do exactly the same thing is frustrating and stupid.

or else I got your point totally wrong, in that case I'm sorry and you will have to explain, so even I understand.

This is a good idea, and would make a great mod, but Ron, and Schod are both correct. What this would do is essentially "force" a balance between all opponents. As in for example a person with 100 worlds will have exactly the same amount of ships as a person with only 10. I am not a big fan of hard caps in a game like this, and that is exactly what will happen here unless you make the research numbers very high.

For mods where there are supposed to be a finite amount of ships of any given type this does have merit.

Its not fair because this game is based around the basic mechanic more planets means more resources, including fleet points, and on larger maps this effectively caps a player at far less than his planet-based points. Which means my empire might cover half the map, but if there are 3 other players left, they all have the same size fleet as I do...

FFAs become even harder to win!

I have to agree with Ron about not liking this idea. Allowing people to research frigs and cruisers allows them to not waste resources researching types of ships they never use (like I build good fighter compliments rather than Gardas). This would get rid of that element of strategic planning in research and would degrade "funness" in my opinion.

“I have 100 planets and little Billy only has 10, but we both have the same number of ships” That's not cool, so it’s a good thing it’s not what I’m talking about.    

The limit is their only early on, but it’s not going be any more of a hamper than the current system. There could be 3 stages for Frigates and 4 for Cruisers equal to the number of times you currently have to research for the 7 different ships. The last stage for example could make any further ship building fleet supply limited only. With the current system you may have access to a large fleet, but only limited types of ships.

(Basic Idea)
If you have more planets you have more fleet points.
If you have more planets you have more places to put research stations.
If you have more research stations you research higher in the tree.
If you research higher in the tree you get more ships, but ships of any type.

This does not do away with fleet supply.
This does not imply it’s more expensive.
This does not imply the number of ships with each stage.
This does not make ship numbers entirely research dependant.
This does not imply how many stations necessary for each stage.
This does not imply an end limit on ship numbers. (Really it doesn’t)
This does not imply how many stages for Frigates and Cruisers there should be.

If you don’t like the idea for what it is great, but at least try to understand what I’m talking about and where I’m trying to take it without making up things to dislike about it. I thought my pretty picture would help break it down barney style, but I guess it just makes it more confusing.  

i like the potential of this idea. i think a compromise would be good though.

First, i think it should NOT be a hard cap. instead say each layer of research would divide the fleet point usage for that particular type of ship. rather then increasing the "cap" the tech would decrease the amount of points needed to support a cruiser, frig, or cap ship (or maybe leave caps alone the way they are)

Second, this would mean the total number of fleet points generated per planet would need to be decreased.

Third, id like to leave the individual ship type techs the way they are, or possibly lower them to be available earlier, but have their initial fleet support needs hiked.

And Finally, I would like to see a balance brought to the game in the area of "the bigger you get the more assured you are of victory." I would like to see it possible, through lots of skill, to win by being the little dude in the corner. This could possibly be done by making the top tears of this FP dividing tech be worth ALOT but possibly not take 15 research stations. I don't quite know how this would really work, but id like to see it be a tech the little guy the in the corner would have to invest heavily in to make his fleet strong enough to go up against the big dude, who would rather put his recourses to better use then those expensive techs...

how do you think this last one could be accomplished?

Rhaw, given that we aren't understanding your suggestion, you need to explain it better. Why don't you try -- gasp! -- giving examples so you can collapse the multiple possible interpretations of your words into one possible meaning.

I think I deciphered it. He was combining capship research and frigate and cruiser research concepts. His "pretty picture" is eight stages of research for independant fleet caps on frigates and cruisers that would give you access to all of them, but in limited numbers. This would mean you could skip straight to cruiser x or y instead of waiting for 7 research labs or whatever, but only in small numbers at the start to avoid breaking the balance or something. As opposed to hard capping at the end as was implied despite his intentions, he also suggests that the last tier would remove non fleet point based limitations. I don't think it was very well thought out, but it seems vaguely sensible, his original post is most definitely horribly botched and misleading as all get out if I'm even close to right.

Let me see if I'm understanding:

Fleet points generated by planets would remain as it is currently. Basically you're introducing "crews" for frigates and cruisers like we currently have for cap ships - To build a ship requires both fleet points and a crew.

Well that is for the most part what I’m talking about. The “only in small numbers at the start to avoid breaking the balance or something” is there, because currently you have to research the individual ships and with this you get all the ships of that type to choose from. Ships you would not normally have until somewhat latter in the game.

With this you’re getting stuff you shouldn’t have earlier at the price of numbers. The idea is maybe you have the fleet supply for a good number of Skarovas, but you normally wouldn’t even have access to them so the limit is there to control that. By the time you would have access to them the ship class is opened up and you can build as many as you have fleet supply for.

Maybe this one is less confusing.


As for it being poorly thought out how well thought out does a basic idea have to be? I was proposing something at its simplest not necessarily a finished concept. I also hadn’t anticipated the eagerness of people to misinterpret, jump to conclusions, and fill in the blanks with the negatives they don’t like, so for as far as that is concerned yes it was poorly thought out.

I still like the system as is, partly because I like how ship types evolve and get more diverse as the game goes on. With this system, while fleet sizes would still get gradually bigger like they do know, ship type diversity would remain constant. I like having to work to get carriers specifically and having the option of not bothering with getting certain ships. That is my objection to this plan.

Personally, I prefer the system as is stands now... the fleet size of a given empire is determined largely by the number of planets they own and the resources dedicated to develop said planets. This would simply give a greater advantage to players who focus more on research early game. Currently there is a clear choice of

1.) Deploy larger fleets and overwhelm with pure numbers games
OR
2.) Research better ships and beat your opponent w/ specialization


IF there were fleet size modifiers in the tech tree, I would rather they modified the FP earned by planets by some %. Start the game w/ say a -25% to total FP, then research up as you go. All races hit 100% w/ say 5 researches, but make the TEC able to research up to 120% through 4 more researches(just a number I'm throwing out there.) Give the other races 4 more researches that increase their power by 20% to balance things out.
The percentages will tend to even things out in the early game where the numbers involved are relatively small, but the difference is profound in late games when players can have Fleet Points in excess of 1000.

As a side note, I DO like how Rhaw organized the buttons, with the similar techs grouped together. I hope the final tech trees will be a little more organized.