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Resource Upgrade Techs - Do the math...

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Resource Upgrade Techs - Do the math...

from Stardock Forums

Facts
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(This data is from beta 4, Vasari, at normal speed)

The Vasari resource upgrade techs do in fact provide a 5% increase per asteroid, per ~second.

The TEC resource upgrades provide an almost 7% increase per asteroid, per ~second.

The game "tics" ~twice per second.

Asteroid colonies do indeed recieve the resource tech bonuses.

A -10% allegiance modifier will yield 10% less resources.

To put this data in perspective, a modest sized Vasari empire (5 colonies, each with 1 crystal asteroid) will produce 900 more crystal per hour with the first resource upgrade tech.


Analysis
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If I had to take an educated guess at what point it is viable to start researching resource tech's, first I would have to decide how long I am willing to wait for the tech to pay for itself, and how much crystal and metal are worth in credits.

So for shits and giggles lets say:

A) I'm willing to wait 15 minutes at most for the tech to pay for itself.
B) 50 crystal = 100 credits
C) 50 metal = 100 credits

The first Vasari tech costs 600 credits 50 metal and 100 crystal, or by my above conversion, 900 credits. If I want my upgrade to pay that off in 15 minutes or less I will need X resource extractors...

**Warning: if you don't care for math, skip to the last paragraph**

Assuming 100% allegiance on all extractors, the first upgrade nets 0.05 resources per second, per extractor. By my above conversion that translates to 0.1 credits per second per extractor.

900 credits / 0.1 credits per second = 9000 seconds or 2.5 hours for ONE extractor's bonus to pay for the total cost of the first upgrade.

I decided that an acceptable return on investment would be 15 minutes so...

15 minutes = 900 seconds / 9000 seconds for one extractor to pay it off = 0.1 (One extractor is a tenth of the extractors needed to meet the 15 minute quota)

So by these rough calculations, You should have AT LEAST 10 extractors before you research the first tech, and even then it will be 15 minutes before you get back what you spent, and start to profit from it. Remember 5% of 10 extractors is only 30 extra units of material per minute, or 1800 more per hour, so the increase in material is not drastic, even with 10 extractors. The tech is still very worth the investment in a 2 hour+ long multiplayer game.

Note: These calculations still roughly apply to TEC. Just remember you will need 10 extractors of the appropriate resource, and you get ~2% more of a bonus.
187,430 views 102 replies
Reply #76 from Sins Forums Top
player 1: (upgrade) ===> (30 minutes) ===> Profit
player 2: (15 minutes) ===> (upgrade) ===> (15 minutes) ===> Profit
End of quote


player 1 actually makes more profit , because his upgrade effects his resources for 30 minutes whereelse players 2 upgrade only effects his resources for 15 minutes.

Aslong as the cost of the upgrade does not compromise the natural increase in resources from expansion or compromise tactical situation that could lead to destruction of resources, then player 1 is more profitable.

See how silly that looks? Show me some facts or go home.
End of quote


Doenst look so silly does it....


The person who upgraded later had 600/50/100 more cash early game.
End of quote


Money in the bank does fuck all. you have to invest it either in tactics or research upgrades. I keep saying aslong as your tactically stable , you can invest in research IE ASAP. This is why your model is flawed. you use how many asteroids you have as an indicator of when to upgrade when infact , a skilled RTS player will use his tactical situation as an indicator of when he can afford to upgrade his resources when possible.



Reply #77 from Sins Forums Top
this thread be should be picked up again after the final version of the game has been released.
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #78 from Stardock Forums Top
player 1 actually makes more profit , because his upgrade effects his resources for 30 minutes whereelse players 2 upgrade only effects his resources for 15 minutes
End of quote


If you dont get it you dont get it. It's all about the number of extractors. If you have 5, it will be 30 minutes before you see profit. If you have 10, 15 minutes.

I understand your argument:
"But If I upgrade with 5 extractors, I will still be gaining more extractors while 30 minutes expires."

Even if you gained 5 more extractors in 30 minutes, You will be no further ahaid.

Do the math or Im done talking to you about it. You have all the numbers. See for yourself.

Money in the bank does fuck all. you have to invest it either in tactics or research upgrades.
End of quote


Just like schod, you start to create a new argument. Nobody said to sit on that money.

Break out your calculator p5, or it's all hot air.
Reply #79 from Sins Forums Top
Just like schod, you start to create a new argument. Nobody said to sit on that money.
End of quote


So tell me what your going to do with the money instead ?
Reply #80 from Stardock Forums Top
Just like schod, you start to create a new argument. Nobody said to sit on that money.


So tell me what your going to do with the money instead ?
End of quote


Whatever you want.
Reply #81 from Sins Forums Top
People, it's not that hard to grasp.
There are scenarios where having the 600/50/100 is worth more in the early game then having the tech in the early game. Mica has shown a great example of how slowly the tech pays for itself, so that one could THEORETICALLY spend the money elsewhere for greater effect.

How hard is that to grasp?
Reply #82 from Sins Forums Top

Just like schod, you start to create a new argument. Nobody said to sit on that money.


So tell me what your going to do with the money instead ?


Whatever you want.
End of quote


There are TWO things. Tactical or resource.

And as ive stressed already. Once you are sound tactically , theres nothing else to do but spend on resource. so guess what , if you dont upgrade your resources then you are either sitting on your money when it could have been invested early , or you are actually not tactically sound because you need to make tactical purchases. And this exactly what ive been saying all along. Let your tactical situation dictate when you make your research upgrades.


There are scenarios where having the 600/50/100 is worth more in the early game then having the tech in the early game. Mica has shown a great example of how slowly the tech pays for itself, so that one could THEORETICALLY spend the money elsewhere for greater effect.
End of quote


Same goes to you. Yes theres other things you can spend it on - tactical things. If you are sound tactically however , you have only two choices. sit on your money or spend on research upgrades. If you still need to buy tactical stuff then by all means spend your money elsewhere for greater effect. But allow this player judgement as to whether you think "theres anything else that can give you a greater effect" dictate when you upgrade your resources and weigh this against knowing earlier is better ( asap ).


Dont use counting asteroids as a way of dictating when to upgrade .




Reply #83 from Stardock Forums Top
Dont use counting asteroids as a way of dictating when to upgrade .
End of quote


lol! Get a clue! Thats exactly where the upgrades apply! 5% of 0 is still 0!

Im not dictating anything. Im showing the upgrade is a non-issue until you have extractors to back it up.

I didnt read you whole post, and I will not read any more. Your argument has already been coverd in my OP.
Reply #84 from Sins Forums Top
Micaletti, bit of a personal question if you don't mind - are you a math major or something similar? You're basically conducting your tests and deriving your results using very basic mathematical thinking (basic in the sense that it's the norm), and I think part of the problem is that people just aren't understanding the point you're trying to get across. Usually, this way of doing things is not symmetrical to the way people normally think, so unless they're used to this kind of thing it's not going to register easily :P
Reply #85 from Stardock Forums Top
My point was to answer my own questions. Clearly I made a mistake by sharing these calculations. I also have calculations on trade ports, and aproximately how long they take to pay for themselves. I will not be sharing them.

I will also be recalculating this and other things with data from the new release. I will not be sharing those calculations either.

You can use math to accurately estimate alot of things in this game, and in this world.
Reply #86 from Sins Forums Top
I wouldn't say it was a mistake, don't let 2 people ruin it for you. I'm pretty sure most people found this helpful, even though the numbers may not match up to the release version.

To be honest, I'm not sure how you could've made your point any clearer than "Given this cost of researching the upgrade, and an x number of mines affected, it will take y amount of time to recoup the investment"  ;) 

Edit: Just in case it was misunderstood - I'm backing you up, just saying you're worried about arguing with the wrong people. Those of us who are used to thinking in mathematical terms see the value in your analysis.
Reply #87 from Sins Forums Top
He makes the point of when one should start upgrading. thats a no no . Need to look at the tactical situation first. As just a bunch of calculations to just know , then its fine.
Reply #88 from Sins Forums Top
No, he's not. Read the preface to the analysis, and you'll understand that beyond the numbers it's more personal. At worst he's saying "If you don't want to wait 30 minutes for your investment to pay off, upgrade when you have about 10 mines so it pays off in 15 minutes" - which is quite far from the way you/Schod make it sound.
Reply #89 from Sins Forums Top
... agh I really want to say something. but instead I shall share my own bredth of data (psst, you forgot to multiply by .5 Mica) 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 0.025 0.05 0.075 0.1 0.125 0.15 2 0.05 0.1 0.15 0.2 0.25 0.3 3 0.075 0.15 0.225 0.3 0.375 0.45 4 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.5 0.6 5 0.125 0.25 0.375 0.5 0.625 0.75 6 0.15 0.3 0.45 0.6 0.75 0.9 7 0.175 0.35 0.525 0.7 0.875 1.05 8 0.2 0.4 0.6 0.8 1 1.2 9 0.225 0.45 0.675 0.9 1.125 1.35 10 0.25 0.5 0.75 1 1.25 1.5 11 0.275 0.55 0.825 1.1 1.375 1.65 12 0.3 0.6 0.9 1.2 1.5 1.8 13 0.325 0.65 0.975 1.3 1.625 1.95 14 0.35 0.7 1.05 1.4 1.75 2.1 15 0.375 0.75 1.125 1.5 1.875 2.25 16 0.4 0.8 1.2 1.6 2 2.4 17 0.425 0.85 1.275 1.7 2.125 2.55 18 0.45 0.9 1.35 1.8 2.25 2.7 19 0.475 0.95 1.425 1.9 2.375 2.85 20 0.5 1 1.5 2 2.5 3 21 0.525 1.05 1.575 2.1 2.625 3.15 22 0.55 1.1 1.65 2.2 2.75 3.3 23 0.575 1.15 1.725 2.3 2.875 3.45 24 0.6 1.2 1.8 2.4 3 3.6 25 0.625 1.25 1.875 2.5 3.125 3.75 horizontal numbers are tech levels, verticle left are number of mines note: 25 mines is by a rough estimate, maybe 12 or 13 planets, not a huge stretch. bah: screw microsoft excel, I ask that nobody post so that I can straigthen these numbers out first. test: why arent returns showing up?
Reply #90 from Sins Forums Top
1 2 3 4 5 6 1 0.025 0.05 0.075 0.1 0.125 0.15 2 0.05 0.1 0.15 0.2 0.25 0.3 3 0.075 0.15 0.225 0.3 0.375 0.45 4 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.5 0.6 5 0.125 0.25 0.375 0.5 0.625 0.75 6 0.15 0.3 0.45 0.6 0.75 0.9 7 0.175 0.35 0.525 0.7 0.875 1.05 8 0.2 0.4 0.6 0.8 1 1.2 9 0.225 0.45 0.675 0.9 1.125 1.35 10 0.25 0.5 0.75 1 1.25 1.5 11 0.275 0.55 0.825 1.1 1.375 1.65 12 0.3 0.6 0.9 1.2 1.5 1.8 13 0.325 0.65 0.975 1.3 1.625 1.95 14 0.35 0.7 1.05 1.4 1.75 2.1 15 0.375 0.75 1.125 1.5 1.875 2.25 16 0.4 0.8 1.2 1.6 2 2.4 17 0.425 0.85 1.275 1.7 2.125 2.55 18 0.45 0.9 1.35 1.8 2.25 2.7 19 0.475 0.95 1.425 1.9 2.375 2.85 20 0.5 1 1.5 2 2.5 3 21 0.525 1.05 1.575 2.1 2.625 3.15 22 0.55 1.1 1.65 2.2 2.75 3.3 23 0.575 1.15 1.725 2.3 2.875 3.45 24 0.6 1.2 1.8 2.4 3 3.6 25 0.625 1.25 1.875 2.5 3.125 3.75 yup, tables screw up posting, damn. well for anyone who can see this (probably not many) I'll get you some extensive data in a sec.
Reply #91 from Stardock Forums Top
Wtf is all this! lol get your shit together! You are already screwing up. It's 0.025 material every HALF second, per extractor... 0.05 material per second, per extractor... I cant wait to see this. Go Schod-the-rod!
Reply #92 from Sins Forums Top
my computer was giving me funky crap about excel, so I just used paint and photobucket. its pretty self explanatory, income/second, # mines and all tech levels. the data is more comprehensive here, you can see the ultimate patterns and none of these numbers are unreasonable. the right edge is cut off I know, but deal with it. Mica if you did a halfhazard analysis about when is the *general* optimum time to buy the upgrade, then I would have no issue with your analysis (maybe I would disagree with your belief, but thats unimportant). but the point stands that as of right now "when" of the upgrade is always ALWAYS sooner rather than later (within reason), no debate whatsoever.
Reply #93 from Sins Forums Top
mica for godsake look in game yourself, its .6/sec on your HOMEWORLD. to quote the game files "resourceExtractionType "Crystal" resourceExtractionRate 0.500000" now I've given you far better theoretical data, all your work equates to finding a single supposedly optimal point, ignoring the surrounding geometry of the economy. thats not helpful considering that if you begin BEFORE then you pass over that point of grand return anyway.
Reply #94 from Sins Forums Top
I'm going to try to post the pure data once again, here goes: 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 0.025 0.05 0.075 0.1 0.125 0.15 2 0.05 0.1 0.15 0.2 0.25 0.3 3 0.075 0.15 0.225 0.3 0.375 0.45 4 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.4 0.5 0.6 5 0.125 0.25 0.375 0.5 0.625 0.75 6 0.15 0.3 0.45 0.6 0.75 0.9 7 0.175 0.35 0.525 0.7 0.875 1.05 8 0.2 0.4 0.6 0.8 1 1.2 9 0.225 0.45 0.675 0.9 1.125 1.35 10 0.25 0.5 0.75 1 1.25 1.5 11 0.275 0.55 0.825 1.1 1.375 1.65 12 0.3 0.6 0.9 1.2 1.5 1.8 13 0.325 0.65 0.975 1.3 1.625 1.95 14 0.35 0.7 1.05 1.4 1.75 2.1 15 0.375 0.75 1.125 1.5 1.875 2.25 16 0.4 0.8 1.2 1.6 2 2.4 17 0.425 0.85 1.275 1.7 2.125 2.55 18 0.45 0.9 1.35 1.8 2.25 2.7 19 0.475 0.95 1.425 1.9 2.375 2.85 20 0.5 1 1.5 2 2.5 3 21 0.525 1.05 1.575 2.1 2.625 3.15 22 0.55 1.1 1.65 2.2 2.75 3.3 23 0.575 1.15 1.725 2.3 2.875 3.45 24 0.6 1.2 1.8 2.4 3 3.6 25 0.625 1.25 1.875 2.5 3.125 3.75 hopefully with a different browser this will function better...
Reply #95 from Sins Forums Top
I'm not sure I'm reading the graph correctly.

Is it saying that 25 mines at tech level 1 produces 0.6 units per second? Or 0.6 units per second per mine?

Thanks,
Keith

Edit: testing line breaks
Reply #96 from Stardock Forums Top
Show some numbers Schod-the-rod...
Reply #97 from Sins Forums Top
.6 units per second, obviously the first tech doesnt have good returns later on in the game. but at 3.75 at tech six, you're getting almost a hundred crystal a minute, which is damn good considering I cant spend it at that rate.
Reply #98 from Sins Forums Top
yay mica, your graph doesnt work either! besides, your graph provides no fundamental understanding unless you're very experienced with numbers. I'm fine with it, but most people will look at that and think "not bothering"
Reply #99 from Sins Forums Top
Ah, k, thanks. By the way, it looks like you have to put in a HTML br tag ( <br /> ) to get a line break. Might have something to do with the recent forum fix to get the avatars working for some folks.
Reply #100 from Stardock Forums Top
Thats a purty graph Schod. Where are the NUMBERS?