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[MOD WIP] Star Trek: Sacrifice of Angels 2 (updated 01/10/09)

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[MOD WIP] Star Trek: Sacrifice of Angels 2 (updated 01/10/09)

from Sins Forums

Featured (by a small mention) in the October edition of PC Gamer magazine

Candidate for Mod Database's 2008 Mod of the Year

This is the OLD "Work in Progress" thread for the Star Trek: Sacrifice of Angels 2 mod.

The new WIP topic is here https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/342747

The "Release" topic can be found here https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/322473


The mod is intended to be a hommage, and tribute to the original Sacrifice of Angels mod for Homeworld. It will use many of the same models, and effects created for that mod by the Trekmods team. Like the original SoA mod SoA2 is set during the Dominion War era of Star Trek. Using both canon, and non-canon units to recreate those battles with Sins "empire building" mechanic added. Like in SoA you can fight battles in SoA2 using hundreds of starships. Sometimes thousands if your computer can handle it ;)

While the mod was not intended as a "Total Conversion". That is exactly what it is winding up being. There is much about the Sins engine, and mechanics that we still need to learn. There are some hard coded stumbling blocks we have to overcome.

The factions will be the Federation, Klingons, Romulan, and the Dominion (with Breen, and Cardassian ally units). The main factions seen in the Dominion War. With a "Surprise" as the Pirate faction.

Factions like the Borg "may" be added in the future. LokiGodofMischief is working on a very good 3rd party Borg add on for SoA 2. It is very possible his add on may be merged with SoA 2 at a much later time.

The current version of SoA 2 is  0.03b   "The Second Dominion War". Look for it here  https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/322473

0.03b only works with Sins versions 1.1, 1.11, and 1.12.

All previous versions of SoA 2 are obsolete, and will not be supported, or hosted anymore. All older version downloads will be removed.

We will NOT port SoA 2 over to Entrenchment until after Entrenchment is out of beta, and released. Along with proper forge tool updates.

I am working on the models mostly ALONE so it may take a while for any new ship model updates.

Darkshimmer is the Balancing guru, Code monkey, and Master at arms. We do have other contributers, and the best 3rd party work from the finest artists in the trek mod community to help make SoA 2 the best it can be.

Status of Demo 0.04  "The actors are in place" 

Will update when i have news.

General Changes:

Manshooters Volumetric Explosions mod will be included as of 0.03a

May include Sins Plus (planets), but ill need to see how much that mod needs changing to incorporate into SoA 2.

SoA 2 0.03 and above is now patch 1.1, and better compatable. Sins patches 1.11, and 1.12 only address balancing, and online exploits, and have no effect on the mod.

Ships will have some anti stike craft weaponry.

Ships are still being added and balanced accordingly.

More re-balancing so that one faction is not overpowered over the other.

The Federation:

Faction is complete. Only structures left

The Klingon Empire

Faction is complete. Only structures left.

The Romulan Star Empire:

Faction is complete. Only structures left

The Dominion:

Faction is complete. Still needs balancing work.

Pirates:

They were going to be the Borg, but that idea failed. So we are looking into Random multirace ship spawns.

Planetary Defenders

Basically "Ships of the week" like the Maquis, Sona, Ferrengi, Tammarian battle cruisers and the like.

Balancing:  Darkshimmer has the Federation, Romulan, and Klingon Empire, and Unified Dominion balanced.

Gameplay: We now have a working Cloaking Device! Check the ModDB page for the WIP video. Cloaking will not be fully implemented in the mod until version 0.04

Art: We are working on an LCARS style UI, adding proper icons, and pictures for all of the new units. The UI is going to take a while to do, because of all of the redundancy of the Sins UI. SoA 2 uses 2 sets of UI textures. Instead of the standard 4 textures for buttons, and 2 textures for icons. SoA 2 uses 8 textures for buttons, and 4 textures for icons which IMO is a major waste of resources, because sins loads all these textures at startup. Unfortunetly i dont see any other way to do it. What is kind of cool is that we dont have to use the same HUD for each faction. It is possible to have unique HUDs, but again the perfomance hit, because of the extra drain on resources could be big, and not worth it.

In Planning: (No promises, or guarentees, but we will try to add these if possible.)

Troop Transport effects.

Planetary invasion animations

Tractor beams. (need a code monkey for this)

Whatever else we can think of and are capable of doing.

Future Updates:

SoA 2 0.04 is now in planning, and will be focused primarily on Proper research trees, Ability's, and adding proper Structures. More than likely demo 0.04 will be the last demo. After that then the full mod should be ready.

SoA 2 0.05 will be the final spit, and polish of the mod. It will focus mainly on re-balancing if needed. Also final artwork changes will be made here. Which will include some ship model re-builds, and re-texturing.

The Full SoA 2 1.0 mod will be released "When it is Finished". We are doing this on our own free time. We aren't getting paid to do this. We have no set schedule. We have no time limit. I want this one to be good. So it wont go online until we feel it is ready.

*NOTE: Much about Sins as we are all now realizing is hardcoded. SoA 2 is going to be far from a perfect "trek" mod due to these hardcoded issues. However we will try to do the best we can with workarounds, and compromises to get it as close as possible. Like i said some things wont be perfect. Some things cannot be done at all. Enjoy the mod for what it is, and try not to be too "nit picky".

SoA2 will be hosted on Mod Database once it is ready http://www.moddb.com/mods/star-trek-sacrifice-of-angels-2

This main header will be updated when i have news to post.





modding
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Reply #526 from Sins Forums Top
I´ll donate some blood for u...... ;p
Reply #527 from Sins Forums Top
Actually, ship designs shouldnt be too hard to come up with especially if you've played star trek legacy and some of it's mods Great ideas there, not saying rip the models off, but just use them as a general starting point for some of the ships.

As for factions, i agree that you should keep them all seperate, mainly because in my opinion, if you combine factions.. it would feel like you were "missing " something when you played with ships of two different races in one faction.. if you catch my meaning.
SoundPackager - Customize the Windows sound scheme
Reply #528 from Sins Forums Top
my plan has always been to get at least 5 ships of each race into the mod and then do an alpha release. i do have a set of ships waiting permission responses hopefully i'll hear from them soon.
Reply #529 from Sins Forums Top
Well,

This may sound a bit weird, but after some small contributions to Ezraeil's work, I have refused to play Sins until the release of the Sovereign Class. I remember watching Star Trek TNG as a kid and always thinking (Galaxy fans please forgive me) that the Enterprise-D was always a bit akward looking, even ugly at some angles.... And then came the Sovie & I thought to myself at the time, "That has got to be the coolest looking ship I've ever seen (i.e. Star Wars, Bab 5, Stargate & Star Trek)" & since then I have always looked for and played with the Sovereign in every Star Trek mod I find.

This all may sound a bit over-the-top, but everyone falls in love with Star Trek for their own reasons. For me it has always been the ships (namely the sovereign), & truthfully thats all I have been waiting for in terms of Star Trek Mods for sins.

So believe me when I say that the release of a few ships may not be the "Fantastic Star Trek bomb" that you guys wanted to drop on the Sins community, but it will more than enough to send a few of us running around in a frenzy, singing your praises... ;p 

In short,

All of the work you have done & will do, WILL be very appreciated by the Sins community, as is reflected by the many appreciative posts already in this thread & in others. So take heart, dont lose sight of your goal & move forward with the knowledge that there are many here who are ready to support and encourage you along the way.


Good Luck....

Adm. Cobbs
Reply #530 from Sins Forums Top
The problem shim is the separated edges. Exporting .max to .3ds does this. Also converting other formats as well.

What has to be done is the separated points need to be re-welded in XSI. Some edges are ok to leave alone, but there are some areas on a model where any sharp edges are a very bad thing (like down the middle of a curved saucer). You can see them plain as day on surfaces that you know are supposed to be smooth, but have a nasty crease in them in game.

welding points is easy to do "if" the mesh is split in multiple groups or layers. However when we export 3ds to xsi all groups get merged into a single mesh. Im still learning the program so any assistance to shimer in how to create separate mesh groups in XSI would help him out greatly.

I have the Ambassador almost finished, and i took these seem problems into account when i built her. If the Galaxy needs a new mesh or the current one re-worked im on it.
Reply #531 from Sins Forums Top
Mesh groups are called clusters in XSI. Check out help file info on that as well as online tutorials, plenty of info there too.

Also, if you are dealing with separated edges, but a single mesh, you can try and do what I suggested - select all points (vertices) around the trouble areas and do the "filter point" command. What this does is weld all vertices that are closer than the specified distance - so basically if your edges have split, you have double vertices along them and this should weld them together with a single click. "Filter points" is a great mass weld command and worth trying if you haven't tried it already.
Reply #532 from Sins Forums Top
What was the list of starships that you guys are going to model and use for your mod. Also how will you sort them into the classes of the game?

Flux
Reply #533 from Sins Forums Top
What was the list of starships that you guys are going to model and use for your mod. Also how will you sort them into the classes of the game?Flux
End of quote


right now i'm still working on that i have 6 ships already in mind for feds

sovy
galaxy
nebula
defiant
centaur
Ambassador

Klingons

B'rel
Neth'ak
D7 (refit)
D17
Negh'var
k'vek

Romulans

Warbird
valdore
Nierrh
Dvethex
Shadow
Raptor

Dominion & Cards (still obtaining models)

Bug
galor
hutet


Reply #534 from Sins Forums Top
Looks good, wats the projected ship count at the end of all this if i may ask?

Flux
Reply #536 from Sins Forums Top
The problem with the model might be related to the conversion from Max to XSI, however it's been my experience with the model in question, that there exists a multitude of "mesh errors" in the model, causing problems such as the non-visible deflector dish. I believe it be able to be fixed, by welding together vertices that have somehow become disconnected. However I realize this might be a complicated and time consuming task.

If no other Galaxy Class model exists within the polygon limits of the game, my suggestion would be to make an open request to modellers out and about in the community, of designing a new Galaxy Class model that fits the game limits, and looks visually stunning at the same time. A daunting task to be sure, but afaik the only good looking Galaxy models around in the various Trek games, are either the P81 Galaxy (which this one is based off of, and fits the game limits), or the SNS/DJ Galaxies which are extremely great on visuals, but unfortunately are too high detailed for the game limit on polygons.
Reply #537 from Sins Forums Top
It just so happens I'm working on my Galaxy model right now... The actual mesh is done, and I'm in the process of making my textures for it. As it stands right now, the poly count is at 6021, which is reasonable, I think. I'm not sure if you guys are looking for just a mesh, or a textured model, or what, but I'd be willing to donate whatever I need to, free of charge ;) . Here are a couple of shots to help you guys decide...





Ezraeil

Oh, and PS... I STILL want to be on this mod team if there's room, and would love to contribute in any way I can, so if you guys are looking for a helping hand, you guys know where to find me, so to speak :P ...
Reply #538 from Sins Forums Top
WTF, where's my edit button? Whatever...
Doublt-P.S. Ignore the poly count on the last screenshot, that was before I sliced and diced the polygons with 5+ sides. I have also, just fyi, tested this model in game without textures, and it looks fine, so no need to worry about something happening between ModTool and the Game...

Ezraeil
Reply #540 from Sins Forums Top
Seems your Galaxy model has a few smoothing problems to sort-out. Model otherwise looks pretty good. Darkshimmer would need to respond regarding adding new members to the team, as he is currently "The Man" in charge :D
Reply #541 from Sins Forums Top
In complete shock! If you guys actually pool your resources together.... wow. Can't wait for the end result!

Flux
Reply #542 from Sins Forums Top
That galaxy mesh looks good Ezreail. However you need to consider keeping the triangles at 4000, and under if at all possible. Sins has no lod (level of detail) engine. 10000 polys for a ship will hurt the games performance very badly. You can compensate for low poly counts with some good texturing. You shouldn't use any textures larger than 2048x2048. For sins it is better to map your model to ONE large texture sheet than to use multiple smaller ones. It keeps your textures organized, and it also helps improve your models performance.

If you need any modeling advise give me a PM. I cant guarantee when ill reply because of my current situation, but i will when im online next.
Reply #543 from Sins Forums Top
I dont know how to include the Borg in the game without ruining the balance of the game for the other factions, or without making the borg look totally stupid by equalizing them like they did in armada, and SFC3.
End of quote


I have heard a lot of comments about the borg in this forum, and it sounds like most people (including me) want them to be included. So, I have a few points on this to make, as well as points on some other topics, like pirates and Federation ships. I have a lot of stuff to say, but I split it into sections to make it a little easier to handle.

First, you can include the Borg as a faction while making them both realistic and fair. The Borg in the Delta Quadrant would be invincible, but the Borg in the Alpha Quadrant wouldn't have many ships. Therefore, (to me at least) the insanely obvious way to include the Borg as fair but cool and realistic, is to make their ships cost more and use more supply and command (if capital ships). For instance, a Borg cube would be the equivalent of 7 Sovereign-class ships. This isn't completely accurate, but otherwise, they would only get one big capital ship in a game. At any rate, 7 normal capital ships would obliterate a fleet by Sins standards at least. Also, most of their normal ships would be more powerful than normal, but would use extra supply and cost more.
This idea also applies to ships like the Negh'var and the Dominion Battleship, which would be superior to most other capital ships by at least a factor of 2.

Second, the Borg ships should be powerful, so a way to give them frigates is simply to modify civilian ships so they look assimilated. In the Enterprize episode Regeneration, a single Borg drone ended up building a warship superior to the Enterprize with an unarmed shuttle, so this is definitely realistic.

Third, the Borg should not be left out just because they weren't part of the Dominion War. Major Stress mentioned that he wanted to create what if situations like the Breen attacking the Cardassians and Dominion, and a Borg invasion is at least as realistic as this. In fact, the second invasion of Wolf 359 was either during or not long before the Dominion War. And, the most simple way to refute the statement that the Borg shouldn't be part of the mod just because they weren't in the Dominion war is this:
While this mod will focus on the Dominion War, It will evolve into full blown TNG era mod.
End of quote

Therefore, this mod isn't even a Dominion War mod, so that argument has little basis.


Now, I have something to say about pirates. The original idea was the Maquis. Then people mentioned the Orion Syndicate, the Naussicans, and the Cualhoth?. However, pirates wouldn't simply be one faction. There are a lot more sources of pirates than any one faction can create. They would include the Maquis, the Orions, the Tholians, the Naussicans, the REMENS, rogues from the major races (particularly the klingons), the Ferengi, the Gorn, and other races I haven't mentioned. They normally would be mixed, but sometimes the pirates would be more of one type, such as Remens on a Romulan map.


I also am a fan of the starbase idea. Starbases would provide some research benefits, but mainly they would be supply docks and defense platforms. The supply dock could be modified a little so that they provide command bonuses to ships and carry fighters. I'm not sure if this is possible, but if you could, you should probably give a limit to starbases, like Command for capital ships.


I also have something to say about the Federation ships. People think that the Federation ships should be weaker, but from what I have seen, the Federation has very powerful ships. I think that the newer ships (Sovereign, Sabre, Norway, Akira, Steamrunner, Defiant, Intrepid) should be strong and powerful, even compared to Klingon ships, but use more supply and cost more. For instance, a Sabre is probably equal to a Bird of Prey. However, the Sabre would cost more than a Bird of Prey. This way, you could maintain the sense that the Federation was less warlike without downscaling some of their warships.

Also, some people think the Excelsior should be a capital ship. I totally disagree. First, the Excelsior is the oldest warship in the Federation. Second, the USS Lakota, a heavily modified and upgraded Excelsior, was equal to the Defiant, which is the Federation heavy cruiser (if I recall correctly). If heavy upgrades barely put the Excelsior at the level of the Defiant, then it can't possibly be a capital ship. Something like the Ambassador or Prometheus is a better choice (I think the Ambassador was the choice). I personally think that the Excelsior should be a frigate.


My last argument is about maneuverability. Ships like the B'rel, Defiant, Sabre, Dominion Attack Ship, and Hideki should have a maneuverability factor implemented. This way, despite being weaker than normal, they would be able to dodge weapons like torpedoes and (especially) disruptors. Considering that phasors travel instantly and that nowadays we can pinpoint target, phasors would never miss.


To sum up, the Borg can and should be included, Pirates should be many different factions and groups, Federation should be more expensive, not weaker, and maneuverability if possible should be implemented.
Reply #544 from Sins Forums Top
I was still thinking about the Pirates myself, and i think they should be....
"Mercinareies" why? because when every star trek bad guys needed back up there was always an asortment of random "intimadting" looking race warriors with rifles, or retrofited civilain ships or stolen ships. Generic "baddies" that was kinda ST thing combined with clear and personable main leader/villian. Second reason is Pirates in sins is basically used at mercinaries, you bribe them, they attack one way, you attack another, they dont come back/survive, you win the universe. it would just fit with how the mechanic is used. Third reason,,, old mixed matched fleets of all race. All those modles/ships that are to old or eccentric (or from a race other than the 6 mains) you can throw them in here. This way using all kinds of ships, everyone can stop argueing magui, ferengi, orion, remen, or Xindi or whatever as they could possibly all be used in the Mercinaries Fleets, (expecially if the AI can be taught to preferr fleets of certain ship types/combos more instead of a large swarm)
Reply #545 from Sins Forums Top
They didn't say no borg ever, just none right now. Someone else is doing a borg mod and I wouldn't doubt if once both mods are released someone will merge them, assuming the two teams don't do it themselves. "This idea also applies to ships like the Negh'var and the Dominion Battleship, which would be superior to most other capital ships by at least a factor of 2" Not sure I understand that correctly. From my understanding their not going to do the frigate, cruiser, cap ship thing, it's just going to be which ships are strongest and belong in which spot.

IMO you have the federation the way it should be, cost more, longer build time, slightly more firepower. No, the Federation is not a warlike race, but this doesn't mean they can't or wouldn't have the strongest ships or weapons. A defensive race has more time and more resources to put into weapons and ships then a offensive race (which is building far more ships and troops=less research and less resources due to having to replace losses). We also know WHEN the Federation first encountered the Borg (wolf359, not enterprise) but we have no idea when they encountered romulans or klingons, yet we know they did (voyager). As I said earlier, I don't think their doing which ships are which, just which shipyard they will be in. I agree with the Excelsior part if they do go in that direction though, too old, maybe a cruiser at most, but def. not a cap ship.
Reply #547 from Sins Forums Top
EzraeilBeatus I downloaded the Starfleet Ship Mod, started playing it and after a few minutes I got a mini dump and the game stopped. Can you help me fix that error? And I wanted to know if you have worked on any other ship designs?
Reply #549 from Sins Forums Top
Hey,

I posted this in the fan club thread, but I thought I'd post it here to & again I am not sure how "Canon" it is. But it is intresting....