ProfCS101 ProfCS101

Siege Frigate Spam Needs Nerf

Siege Frigate Spam Needs Nerf

Right now it is possible to spam 20+ siege frigates and ninja take out any planet (irrelevent of the defenses) before any possible response can be achieved. Frankly, this lame tactic is used by the AI regularly.

Either lower the planetary damage of siege frigates or implement some kind of system where you must eliminate defenses first. It is IMPOSSIBLE to defend a planet with structures from all 6 sides (or anything short of a huge fleet when you get spammed by 20+ siege frigs). The power of siege frigs have turned this game in to musical chairs (who can knock out who's planets most frequently).
233,931 views 227 replies
Reply #151 Top
"keeping me from expanding beyond 3 planets"
that screams build order issue, either that or an exceptionally small map. but seriously, even on random tiny (do they even have that anymore?) the AI should not be able to outproduce you.
Reply #152 Top
Oh, it's only my second game, so I'm sure I do have build order issues. So, because I'm not very good at the game yet, the AI uses only one tactic 90% of the time? That isn't really a way to encourage new players.
Reply #153 Top
its not nearly "100%" of the time, in fact I only see the issue under 2 circumstances

1) I've left a front completely open or
2) I'm pressing a particular AI very hard

otherwise the AI appears to avoid you unless he can engage directly and win. this is part of why I'm saying that I think people are having build issues: if you leave fronts open this happens, my guess is that most people havent really gotten very far to the point where their arent any more planets left to expand to.
Reply #154 Top
I've had the AI engage me when they couldn't win so I don't see your point :P
Reply #155 Top
the fact that you latch onto the one single comment I made thats irrelevant is quite startling.

in any case: you really cant win against whats not there anymore.
Reply #156 Top
Straight from the retail manual, P.47:

"Krosov Siege Frigate"
Primary Role: Planetary Bombardment

Why can this event put a dent in a capital ship. t's primary role is Planetary Bombardment. Now I might be off my rocker in my logical thinking here...but why is something that's designed for planetary bombardment as it's primary role, able to withstand extended fire from and take down even 1 capital ship or a whole fleet for that matter? Artillery is NEVER on the front line. Nor should it be able to withstand punishment as such.
Reply #157 Top
wait, what??? you lost a capital ship to a fleet of SIEGE frigs?

Xenpo you have to have fallen to the classic mistake of death-by-1000-cuts, if you go into a swarm of firing guns with just a few ships you shouldnt expect to come back out intact.
Reply #158 Top
I did not I was reffering to prevoius posts talking about how much damage the seige frigates can take. The other comment was also in reference to a previous poster stating that he had lost some capital ships to siege frigates, which should not happen.
Reply #159 Top
Prof I've seen you a grand total of 1nce during the beta, there are far more experienced people who have been keeping pace with the game and can handle the siege frigs with the ease of a lazy dog shooing a pesky flee. I hate to say it: but most of the people here are newcomers, you need to give the game more than a few minutes pause to begin to develop a coherent strategy.

for godsake, I felt like a complete noob switching over from beta 4 to release, and I'm one of the most experienced players on this forum, following the devs and a handful of other forumites who have not supported your point.
End of quote


I know I'm just a lowly peasant of the lower castes and I'm not to speak to a member of the gaming nobility except when spoken to, so please excuse me for being so uncouth as to speak out of turn to a gaming Adonis such as yourself, your grace, but it bears mention that to some of us mere 'untouchables', we find that being railroaded into one strategy to counter an equally railroaded strategy defeats the entire point of the game.

Spamming ships should never be an effective strategy, and a certain course of action that must be undertaken to ensure this doesn't happen is an equally lame counterstrategy.

Also: Get over yourself. How long you've played a game or how important you think you are doesn't mean you actually know a damn thing. Either I've got a mind for balance or there's a lot of dolts out there, but I've played countless games and identified lame balance issues just hours in that never go away and are acknowledged later by the whole. I've never once seen the "PLAY LONGER - ITS ONLY BEEN X DAYS" argument dissuade or eliminate a balance issue, ever.
Reply #160 Top
oh quit the tired and jaded sarcasm, I'm saying you need to wait more than a few nanoseconds before you chew someone's head off about something you do not understand.

I'm not saying I understand the game more than you do, what I'm saying is that NONE of us understand enough to start barking up random trees because we arent INSTANTLY pleasured by how the AI just drops and rolls over to our every whim.
I did not I was reffering to prevoius posts talking about how much damage the seige frigates can take. The other comment was also in reference to a previous poster stating that he had lost some capital ships to siege frigates, which should not happen.
End of quote

perhaps I can see a drop in health, but still you shouldnt lose a cap ship to frigs. thats a matter of, *cough* uncouth usage of a powerful ship.
Reply #161 Top
LOL. Why am I not surprised about his eminences arrogance. Yep, there isn't a problem, despite the developers acknowledging that there might possibly be one, you guys just suck.
Reply #162 Top
once again the collective flight towards arrogance is unsurprising.

I dont give a damn about how I play, if I lost every game to the AI for all of the betas, lost to every player I stumbled over, lost to MYSELF when playing alone in an empty solar system I would still say that you guys need to get some experience before you start whining about this and that.

I am irrelevant to this conversation, the fact that I like me, like really like me has got nothing to do with anything. so take a chill pill and at least win a game before you start whining to everyone about how you keep losing to the AI because the strategy the AI uses is cheap, and it has nothing to do with lack of experience on the community's part.
Reply #163 Top
LOL. Why am I not surprised about his eminences arrogance. Yep, there isn't a problem, despite the developers acknowledging that there might possibly be one, you guys just suck.
End of quote


Never mind the fact someone from Stardock posted on page 3 stating EXACTLY what we've been saying all along? It's just not practical to build a fleet of siege frigates against a player that can SEE you doing it and eat you alive.
Reply #164 Top
Ok, I'm really tick off, all this strategy talking has too much of an elitist attitude. To those people are saying left and right how other strategy is flaw and failure, let me remind you a few things that you seem to be DISRESPECTFULLY forget toward other players (and I'm specifically address you Scynix):


- Sins is a 4x game, in which people are freely (and encouraged) to play in various styles and approach, and if the game is good, should has a decree of success as long as they follow a principle of common and basic logic. This is NOT your Dawn Of War or Companies of Heroes whether you turtle, you're screw, or your Starcraft whether if you don't follow a specific tactic or pattern, you're screw. This is a 4X Sandbox game.


- If the player leaves his planet undefended, he's deserved to be screw. If the player sucks at economy and don't have enough ships, he's deserved to be screw. But if the player is prepared, has an overwhelming advantage in fire power, yet his planet is still under a death warrant from a lesser fleet, then it's not the player's fault that he's screw. But it's the fundamental flaw with the system itself.


- If your playing style allows you to by pass this flaw then good for you. But that doesn't mean we can just ignore such flaw because it unrightfully compromises other playing styles. I'm not an aggressive player but neither a passive player, for the most part I expand pretty quickly and re-enforce things as I go, I actually never got my homeplanet underattack. But when any of my planets got nuke to death when they're attacked by a fleet that only hold a fraction of fire power comparing to the fleet that is protecting it, I'm as pissed as anyone. I don't care how it work or doesn't work, I don't care what is it consequence, fact is something illogical that's not supposed to happen, happened in my game and I'm not pleased.


I think I speak for a lot of people here when I say not all of us buy the game to play online, or to play small battle, or big battle or whatsoever, after all that IS one of the main drawing point of 4X games, to do what you like and expect result as long as you are logical, and the siege frigate rush is NOT logical. Look, it's a problem that exists since Beta 2 and afford was made to correct it although doesn't seem enough. It's recognized widely by large number of players and acknowledged by the developers themselves, it's a VALID concern and we're discussing a right way to improve it. If it's not your concern, that's all fine and good, but do be considerate before you arrogantly start criticizing other player's style about how they should play THEIR 4X game:

Reply #165 Top
Someone from Stardock, eh? Funny you should mention that.



I wasn't talking in theory. I've done it.


I do agree with you that they shoudl be nerfed but I know what I just wote works.


End of quote


Not to mention the numerous folks who've posted in this topic all relating the same issues, and the response from the experienced individuals (essentially) is that they suck, or they don't know what're doing, etc.

Reply #166 Top

There isn't. That's the problem. You can deflect all you please, but NEVER should ten CRAP SHIPS that you can build in the first 30 seconds of the game be able to bring down a HEAVILY defended planet system.


With standard game speed and resource settings, it takes a bare minimum of three and a half minutes *just* to get the mere capability of building siege frigs if you go straight for them at the cost of all else. It then takes 45 seconds to build each one, and that's if you have the resources to do so (If you dropped everything, you won't).

In order to finance a seige rush, you'll at least need to get your flagship up and send it out hunting so you can get additional mines up on other planets. That will delay the initial availability of sieges a fair amount (not enough crystal to do both, and one mine gives you a pretty sad trickle).

Financing aside (and that's a big aside), it will take you seven and a half minutes to build ten seige frigs. For the cost of an extra frig factory (built while researching Krosovs) you can halve that... but that puts the total cost past 10000 credits and 1000 crystal, which is a very difficult price to ignore early-game.



For less money than that, a bit more metal, and a LOT less crystal (crystal being a big limiting factor early game), you could make TWENTY cobalts in less time, and have a strong fleet for creeping and colonizing to boot. By the time the siege player is ready, you'll have multiple colonies with resources rolling in, gained at least a couple of levels on your flagship, AND have a fleet strong enough to rip his to bits and be in shape to crush his homeworld shortly thereafter (regardless the status of your own capital).


It's all a matter of strategy. Siege rushes may be powerful against an unprepared player, but they're a huge gamble and are hardly unstoppable. Much like rushes in other games, a failed rush attempt pretty much guarantees your own loss against a competent enemy.
End of quote


This is a repost for the people on page 4 who apparently didn't READ page 3. This is for you guy who just thought I was being rude.
Reply #167 Top
I've had enough of the misunderstandings: theres a difference between playing to a single rigid strategy (something I swear my hands by, sins forbids) and playing an open strategy while maintaining some minimum key defenses. obviously if your enemy isnt doing siege frigs you can be a bit more lax, but you cant "play it your own way" by going on a uniquely economic or war focused path, you need to diversify at least a little bit. and that little bit is all you need to really take care of those siege raids.

I'm just here to tell people they need to cool down for a few days before we start crying "nerf" "this is stupid" and "what idiots made this game, its obviously broken", even as I type its barely been over 35 hours since release, you would need to seriously binge play to say you understand the game sufficiently to say that this is diffinitivly an issue of balance. now if you want to continue crying wolf, fine, but dont expect anyone to come to your rescue until its been confirmed by a more expansive test base.
Reply #168 Top
This seems pretty simple to me. First, reduce the HP or shields or armor. Make them easy to kill, like a trebuchet crew in Medieval Total War II. The trebuchet dominates structures, but is garbage in a fight.

So, to those who don't want your very expensive siege fleet to die in the blink of an eye, I say reduce their cost. Bam. Problem solved. You get some actual combat around the planet to take control of the gravity well and then send in the siege ships. If you just rush with them, they get annihilated but your economy isn't completely wrecked. Its that simple.
Reply #169 Top



This is a repost for the people on page 4 who apparently didn't READ page 3. This is for you guy who just thought I was being rude.
End of quote


Great! I already provided a response from a Stardock staff member, with minimal usage of page space, that said they needed to be nerfed.
Reply #170 Top



This is a repost for the people on page 4 who apparently didn't READ page 3. This is for you guy who just thought I was being rude.


Great! I already provided a response from a Stardock staff member, with minimal page space, that said they needed to be nerfed.
End of quote


are you kidding me? where did he say that at all? he said everything to the absolute CONTRARY! watson!

/puts his head in his hands
ok fine, since its what makes all of us happy I'm abandoning this thread. I have faith that the devs will wait to make any appropriate nerfs instead of jumping to conclusions based on a few virgin testamonies. if they make a nerf after getting enough data thats fine by me. until then I'm outta here.
Reply #171 Top




This is a repost for the people on page 4 who apparently didn't READ page 3. This is for you guy who just thought I was being rude.


Great! I already provided a response from a Stardock staff member, with minimal page space, that said they needed to be nerfed.


are you kidding me? where did he say that at all? he said everything to the absolute CONTRARY! watson!
End of quote


(sigh) Read page two please, Sherlock, look for the sign of the Frogboy.

Reply #172 Top
*pops his head back into the thread*

doesnt help when you're referencing page three, look at the post above you

*gone for good*
Reply #173 Top
I never referenced to any page, I simply posted a quote from a Stardock staff member. Really, Schod, I like you, but sometimes.......
Reply #174 Top

I never referenced to any page, I simply posted a quote from a Stardock staff member. Really, Schod, I like you, but sometimes.......
End of quote


He's saying, as I stated, that my quote is from page 3. You are some how arguing with an EARLIER post versus a LATER post.

*rubs head* I can see why you're leaving Schod. Some people just won't read.
Reply #175 Top


I never referenced to any page, I simply posted a quote from a Stardock staff member. Really, Schod, I like you, but sometimes.......


He's saying, as I stated, that my quote is from page 3. You are some how arguing with an EARLIER post versus a LATER post.

*rubs head* I can see why you're leaving Schod. Some people just won't read.
End of quote


Wow, that sure is a logical point there, it was made earlier, on the same day, by a different developer, so that means it's wrong! Genius!