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Siege Frigate and Pirate tips for newer players!

Siege Frigate and Pirate tips for newer players!

It's not *all* BS, I promise!

Hiya folks! With the recent release of Sins there have been a lot of posts on the forums about the difficulty of dealing with pirates, and AI siege frigate raids. Instead of arguing in each and every post, I figured why not make one with tips on how to deal with them, instead!

First, let me give you some background. In beta, the AI sucked to put it plainly. It was a walk in the park, and it barely did anything. We badgered Ironclad so much to improve it, constantly offering scenarios and feedback of the "well, this is what the AI should do in this case" type. And, Ironclad listened! The new AIs are sneakier, deadlier, and much more fun than the beta AI ever was.

I encourage everyone to realize that the AI was made difficult purposefully, and that new players should not expect to be able to beat it right off the bat. There’s a lot to this game that you can only figure out through practice and experience – especially if you deal with Hard AI.

Having said that, here are some tips (both "strategic" in terms of gameplay, and "combat") on dealing with both sources of frustration for our newer players:

Siege frigates

- First and foremost, make sure to Upgrade your front-line planets with Emergency Infrastructure. This helps immensely and will save you a lot of hair. Most planets can have 6,000 hp (asteroids have 2,500 max) fully upgraded. That’s a LOT of HP for siege frigates to chew through.

- Try not to have asteroids as your front line planets if you can avoid it! Because fully upgraded asteroids only have 2,500 hp compared to 6,000 for planets, they are a lot easier for roaming Siege groups to destroy. Look at the map, try to find a nice "choke point" planet (ideally this would be a planet that’s the only entrance to your inner empire around the area). Don’t expand past it at first. Get your fleet there, colonize it, upgrade it so it has maxed hp.

- Watch the phase lanes and build defenses! Scout ahead, know where your AI enemy is. This makes it easier to predict where he’ll be coming from. There is some variation of where attacking ships will come out of phase space, but it’s ALWAYS somewhere around the phase lane. Build lots of defenses very close to your planet around that area. The AI is not going to maneuver siege frigates to go around your defenses. He’ll charge right in, and get blasted to bits.

- Most planets have 35 tactical points for defenses when fully upgraded (asteroids get 25). Use them! 4-5 gauss turrets (or equivalent for other races) is not enough to defend your planet from a siege raid if you don’t have a stationed fleet there. Build up 15-20, some repair stations, and a few hangars. This is a pretty heavy investment of resources, but you’re in no rush against the AI, and believe me it’ll pay off in the end when you can see 15 siege ships get plastered before they can take out your 6,000 hp colony. Remember to place them where you know the siege frigates will be.

- Try to keep a small defensive fleet on your front line planet. The AI isn’t going to go past it and bomb some undefended planet. A small fleet + defenses will make the AI siege frigates run away quickly. They’re not suicidal, and the AI will want to save his ships if you have an advantage!

- A little later in the game, look at the civic research trees! Races have various ways of helping against siege frigates. These are planetary shield structures, weapon jamming structures, disabling structures, and passive planet upgrades to reduce bombardment damage and the like.


Pirates! ARRRR!

This section is smaller because a lot of it is shared with siege frigates. Pirates aren’t that smart, they’ll plow straight into your defenses, and they also go for your edge of the empire planets, they’ll never bypass a front line planet to go deep into your territory. So all the stuff about defenses and planet upgrades applies to pirates. Know which phase lane they’ll be using, and build defenses on that side of the planet. Do NOT ignore repair centers against pirates. Two repair stations will prolong the life of your defenses very, very, very considerably! I’ve been able to beat back level 4-5 pirate raids and only losing 2-3 turrets because they kept getting repaired.

As far as bounty goes, here are some tips:

The AI will place bounty on each other, too. Pick whoever has the highest close to yours (if you’re the target) and pump his bounty a bit. After all, you usually don’t care who the pirates go after as long as it’s not you.

If you’re low on money, on the pirate target list, and don’t want to fight them – go fight the AI instead. Every one of your ships destroyed decreases the bounty on you to decrease (and awarded to the AI that destroys your ships, but oh well :P). This way, unless you need to lose a lot of bounty, you can usually push the AI back and decrease your bounty at the same time, since you always lose a bit of ships in fights.

Don’t ignore the racial techs that deal with pirates! Advent techs give you a bigger return on placing bounties. Vasari techs scare pirates away and cause them to attack in fewer numbers. These are important if you keep getting harassed by pirates!

[UPDATES]:

"As far as pirates go, the majority of their ships seem to go directly for Trade and Refinery stations, no matter where they are in system. You can set up overlapping guns and repair stations around them and chew the pirates up. Use the trade stations/refineries as bait." - Thanks, Hrett!

"Defense hangars are underrated in a lot of the tips posted, especially if you're playing as the Advent since they have a nice 'buff' for them in their tech tree... Unlike platforms they have unlimited range and as long as you keep the hanagar itself safe they'll keep replenshing themselves. So, cluster a bunch of hanagrs around a repair facility and use up the remaining logistics space for a few platforms to add some extra defense for the hangars and you'll have worry-free defense against most AI and pirate raids." - Thanks, Seven05!

"If you use an asteroid as a "choke point" surround it with about 5 defense structures (gauss, laser, missile). Place them all as close to the asteroid as possible. When sieges show up they will b line it straight to the rock to bomb it, and come into the range of ALL your guns. Hangers, use them to build fighters to take on enemy bombers. Let the guns take care of the ships. I never build more than 2 hangers on an asteroid. Build at least 1 repair platform. More if you have the slots. You are gonna need it. Dont bother with phase jump inhibitors on an asteroid unless you have your own fleet stationed there, and dont want the enemy fleet to run away." - Thanks, Major_Stress!

"Do the trade port/refinery bait trick for pirates. Pirates will almost always go after civilian ships, and structures 1st ignoring any defenses or ships. Nice distraction for your fleets and defenses to take care of them. Civilian ships are auto replaced free anyway so you really lose nothing except the credits/ore the ship was carrying. Make sure your trade ports, and refineries are in range of repair structures, and defenses. In an asteroids case i build the port as close as possible to the rock so the pirates get nailed the same way sieges get nailed. Park capitols at your choke points, and keep them there. When pir8s hit its free experience for the cap ships. " - Thanks, Major_Stress!

"A setup like this is usually enough to wipe out any medium pirate planet: 1 cap ship of choice (preferably carrier), 3 carrier cruisers, 3 heavy cruisers, 6 1st level frigates, 4 LRM frigates. Remember to set your fleet on hold position and stay out of range of the turrets (To do this, set hold position before phase jumping, then right-click on the planet itself. Your ships will automatically jump to the outermost area of the planet. Stay there, the further you are from the enemy, the more damage he has to endure before he reaches you.). Once you finish off the defensive fleet, just go do something else while your bombers wipe out the turrets. If you want to save time, manually ask your bombers to take out enough turrets so you can bring your cap ship in to bomb the planet." - Thanks, duhman02!

"Another point is that if you don't have a convenient buffer system to place your fleet in to defend, say you have 2 systems, then withdraw your fleet back 1 system down your phase lanes to somewhere which links to both, and place a scout in each system linking to the ones you want to defend. When you see ships coming in, just have your main fleet jump to the appropriate system." -Thanks, Thomas Bloxham! [Alternatively, you can research the tech that shows phasing ships from 2 jumps away, each race has them at various points in the tech tree. -Annatar]

--

I hope this helps a bit, if you have any questions please don’t hesitate to post them, and again, please realize that you’re not going to be good at smacking the AI around on day 2 (or 3, or 4) of the game. It’ll take a bit, but soon enough you’ll just be able to laugh when you see 15 unescorted siege frigates jump in to attack one of your colonies :) I promise!
103,988 views 85 replies
Reply #26 Top
15 to 20 turrets? How do you suggest affording to do that while still actually building up a fleet and researching? (I'm not being sarcastic, I'd like to know. Should I focus on terran and ice worlds? Fast-track to trade stations?) Especially since (at least now... hoping AI priorities change with the patch) the siege frigate spam starts about 30 minutes into the game?

Oh, and:

Try to keep a small defensive fleet on your front line planet. The AI isn’t going to go past it and bomb some undefended planet. A small fleet + defenses will make the AI siege frigates run away quickly. They’re not suicidal, and the AI will want to save his ships if you have an advantage!
End of quote


This has actually happened to me. They will run from a large fleet, or from a capital ship, but a small one they just ignore until it's taken out a certain number of the frigates.
Reply #27 Top
they will avoid them, but they wont go past them.
not unless, of course, theres a way around.
15 to 20 turrets? How do you suggest affording to do that while still actually building up a fleet and researching
End of quote

it doesnt need to be that many, 10 or so can double up defenses for one entire planet (planet, not asteriod) and then those should be enough to stop early raids of 5-10 siege frigs, after the enemy progresses to 20 or so siege frigs (something I havent seen without being ajoined to a significantly larger fleet) you need to have some ships sitting around on standby, maybe with a few more defenses to cover you (it seems that at the threshold of 2 overlapping fire fields surrounding a planet the AI fails to give a shit about which angle it attacks from, making turret clumps more effective)
Instead of arguing in each and every post, I figured why not make one with tips on how to deal with them, instead!
End of quote

why? when we can wine until the devs break the game anyway :P
Reply #28 Top

why? when we can wine until the devs break the game anyway
End of quote


Calm down Schod.

Reply #29 Top
alas no one hears calm people. no one listens to rambunctious people, but at least they hear it.
Reply #30 Top
The defense hangers are like the EASIEST way to deal with pirates.

I kept losing ships to the 10-20'ish pirate raiders that would come, I built a hanger with two bomber squads and one fighter squad, the pirates would jump into space and the squads would fly out and simply keep them at bay near the edge of the gravity well and I didn't have to even use any of my main fleet or other defenses.
Reply #31 Top
Yea the hangers work well till the caps show up... Then its downhill for me. Im too busy fighting off the group of bad guys while btw seem to multiply at each raid, and while NOT being able to expand the AI expands around me. Easy is still a bit too hard yet IMHO.... Glad they are gonna fix it soon.
Reply #32 Top
Something you should add is that killing pirates who are just hanging around uncolonized planets in the early game will get bounty off of you (as long as you're losing a couple of ships).
Reply #33 Top
There's already a snippit that losing ships gets bounty off you :) Thanks!
Reply #34 Top
thanks for trying to help us newbies,it´s really appreciated.
i only played 3 normal difficulty games so far (2 small maps, 1 huge, still on that one), and on the small maps, neither pirates nor siege frigates were a problem.

On the huge random one, on the other hand, the Siege frigate spam annoys me quite a bit. There are like 6 players in my star system (5 AI+me)and so im constantly under attack by at least 2 of the AIs.
My planetary defenses consist mostly of Hangars (90% bombers ) and a few repair platforms. For pirates, this works amazingly well. Never had to worry about falling to them.
Matter of fact, sometimes i dont even pay them to not attack me because when you can get a capital ship or two in the system where they attack, its easy experience. (i wanna be able to put a bounty on myself!)

But back to the Siege frigates. My empire spans across 12 or so planets at the moment, and there´s one major choke point on each side, they´re 5 jumps apart. so i divided my fleet and put 4 capital ships and tons of cruisers and frigates in orbit there.
Now even if the AI bombs one of those planets where half my fleet is stationed I have no chance to destroy 15+ siege frigates before they destroy my colony.
If they attack somewhere else and i have to jump my fleet in first even 8-10 Siege frigates are enough to destroy the colony before i get there.
the 10 - 16 bombers that are already there barely scratch the enemy.
Thats just too much.

Dont get me wrong, i love the fact the AI is aggressive and somewhat tricky, but this is way out of proportion. From my limited experience i´d say it´d be great if the Siege frigates had significantly less hitpoints. They should quickly punish anyone who leaves planets defenseless, and they would still be useful in bigger fleets, but it shouldn´t be "oh damn,14 Siege Frigates, where´s my closest colony ship?" no matter what.
Reply #35 Top
Very good posts guys! I want to start a new game just to try your strategies!
Reply #36 Top
I actually find the AI kinda... off... maybe it's just me. I do only play vs 3 hard AI now though, since it's the only thing that gives me a challenge currently. Here's some things I noticed:

1. Your civilian buildings can last a very, very, very, long time. And they repair themselves too. You can actually use them as an effective wall in the early - mid games. Or even in the late game, so long as there's no more than 2 cap ships in the gravity field.

2. Pirates, and the AI in general seem to have a fetish for attacking things that don't matter. Like trade and refinery ships. I think this is a bug and it really should get fixed.

3. You can actually leave all your planets undefended and just build defenses when the enemy comes. They don't attack buildings in construction or your constructors... which is really weird and I hope gets fixed as well. (note: obviously though, if the enemy comes with 300 ships and you have an undefended planet, you're going to lose)

4. Hangars are insanely powerful. Especially in groups. I've held off 2-3 cap ship hard AI fleets with just 3 defensive hangars and two turrets because of the sheer combat capability of bombers. Advent are even better at this, since they get 3 squadrons per hangar, which can then be improved even more through research.

5. I don't know why people complain about siege ships. The pilots of those ships are cowards. You can do many many many things to get them away from your planet. For one, rush them with 3-5 scout ships. They'll turn tail and flee like babies. You could also build a colony ship and wander it around the planet. They'll stop shooting at your planet and chase after the colony ship. These are probably bugs as well. I haven't actually seen one of those mythical huge siege ship armies though. Considering I'm the one usually attacking the AI like a crazed, horny monkey on drugs, that's probably why. So... the best defense is a strong offense?

6. I like pirates. They're like self-delivering buffets. And their bases are rich. Pirates have as much anti-bomber capability as an ant has anti-boot defenses (if you want to be safe, target their anti-fighter ships beforehand). Spam those bombers. Just don't forget to at least bring some meat shields to take damage (A capital ship or two is good for this purpose). A setup like this is usually enough to wipe out any medium pirate planet: 1 cap ship of choice (preferably carrier), 3 carrier cruisers, 3 heavy cruisers, 6 1st level frigates, 4 LRM frigates. Remember to set your fleet on hold position and stay out of range of the turrets (To do this, set hold position before phase jumping, then right-click on the planet itself. Your ships will automatically jump to the outermost area of the planet. Stay there, the further you are from the enemy, the more damage he has to endure before he reaches you.). Once you finish off the defensive fleet, just go do something else while your bombers wipe out the turrets. If you want to save time, manually ask your bombers to take out enough turrets so you can bring your cap ship in to bomb the planet.

7. I actually don't build siege ships. At all. Don't see the point. Your cap ships can bomb planets, just takes longer. But by the time you can bomb the planet, it doesn't really matter if it takes an extra minute or so. Anyone rushing siege ships seems to enjoy wasting resources on a unit that can only be used for one situation and nothing else. And even then, their chance of success is pathetically small. Seriously. Siege ships can't even kill a scout ship (a scout ship can't kill them either, so it's really a stalemate). And if you build so many siege ships, what's going to happen if your opponent builds ships that actually work against other ships? Granted, a significant number of siege ships against a relatively undefended planet is scary. But a significant number of anything against a relatively undefended planet is scary.

8. Lastly, the Advent progenitor mothership is an expansionist God. Just focus on upgrading its colonize planet ability for the first three levels and you won't regret it. 60% savings on all planet upgrades? Add that to the Advent's already insanely cheap planet upgrade build speed and price techs? Free planet exploration!? You'll probably own half the map before your opponent learns how to brush his teeth. Remember, if you have a strong foundation from early on, you're more than likely to win the game. So get expanding asap and attack like a crazed, horny monkey on drugs. Make the AI come onto the forums to complain about humans being too difficult.
Reply #37 Top
Good post :)

But.. I have seen the AI pile up 30+ siege ships and play phase lane tag and bypass 3 planets to get to a 4th in the back sections of my system. even with phase inhibitors its nearly imposible to stop them. I can widdle them down but I end up scattering fleets to do this. Luckly this has only been rampant in one game. Sadly it started 4 hours into it :P Current game is at 8.5 hours so far so good.
Reply #38 Top

Good post

But.. I have seen the AI pile up 30+ siege ships and play phase lane tag and bypass 3 planets to get to a 4th in the back sections of my system. even with phase inhibitors its nearly imposible to stop them. I can widdle them down but I end up scattering fleets to do this. Luckly this has only been rampant in one game. Sadly it started 4 hours into it Current game is at 8.5 hours so far so good.
End of quote
Wouldn't 30 siege ships be more expensive than reupgrading a planet? They won't be able to kill off your buildings in space either. Those ships are on a suicide mission as well. Doesn't make much sense other than being a petty annoyance. 30 siege ships and 1 colony ship. Now we're talking!

Phase inhibitors... are actually kinda useless methinks. No offense to the devs, but the time extension is too low to actually make a difference. Perhaps lengthen the delay a bit?

But I really haven't seen such things before and I've already played 6-ish games. My current one is 8 hours in because I, so stupidly, created a custom map where the distances between planets are as long as the distances between star systems and every alternate planet is a pirate colony, and every planet not a pirate colony is a neutral colony. Then I set all settings to slow. Don't ever do that. It's a very good way of extending a game that should take minutes to hours.

But yeah, I don't approve of any turtling measure, being of the extreme offensive junkie category. So I guess that's the best way of avoiding these things since it'll shift the AI to defend itself instead of attacking you.
Reply #39 Top
good post, duhman2, but i really wonder about 5.

in my games so far the AI siege zergs seemed pretty focused. they didnt flee unless i brought something that would kill them before they kill my planet. and they sure as hell didnt go after colony ships. i had colony ships near those planets many times, and usually it would go like this: zerg comes in, kills planet, turns around to leave, colony ship auto-recolonizes the planet, zerg turns around, and so on...
Reply #40 Top
Also, if siege frigates retreat from 3-5 scout ships, but don't from 5 to 7 light frigates, something must be wrong with the AI. The siege frigates in the game I sent a replay to support for completely ignored my frigates. (Admittedly, too few frigates, but it was more than 3 to 5 scout ships). Only when a cap ship came in would they retreat.
Reply #41 Top

in my games so far the AI siege zergs seemed pretty focused. they didnt flee unless i brought something that would kill them before they kill my planet. and they sure as hell didnt go after colony ships. i had colony ships near those planets many times, and usually it would go like this: zerg comes in, kills planet, turns around to leave, colony ship auto-recolonizes the planet, zerg turns around, and so on...
End of quote
Like I said, the most I've ever seen the AI rush me with siege ships before is probably 5 ships. And I play vs 3 hard offensive AI on locked teams.

I think what's happening is that the AI sees that you are focusing too much on defense and is exploiting a hole in your strategy. I would do the same if I saw you trying to build turrets around your homeworld, just to spite you.

The thing is, I could never use this strategy against the AI because for one, the opportunity cost of building these things is too big to justify the use. 30 siege ships = 120(?) supply units. What this means is that you are giving the AI an opportunity to use what is actually 2 capital ships worth of units in a one time only attack. The question to ask here isn't how spammy this is, but how are you giving the enemy a chance to do this?

As I mentioned earlier, I can't use this against the AI and they *probably* can't use it against me for one, simple reason. IF they used 120 supply units worth of ships in a suicide run (Id they somehow make it back out alive... wtf mate?), I would have 120 supply units worth of ships advantage over them (and maybe one less planet that I can recolonize in 10 seconds). This means that I can then attack their armies with 120 supply units worth of ships that actually have offensive capability which pretty much decides the entire battle.

But if you don't like my constant offense tactics... I dunno... the TEC have that planetary shield you could use. I like to build two of those per planet for no reason. Vasari have phase gates which help you reinforce any area immediately. Advent? Dunno. Plan ahead? Maybe use their culture spying and that planet reveal ability to scout what the enemy is doing. Heck, if the AI is spamming you with siege frigates, return the favour. But this time, bring a colony ship or your number 2 capital ship.
Reply #42 Top
See, there's the issue duhman. You play against Hard AI. It's been said repeatedly, this is something the Easy AI exploits. And it does it over and over and over and over again, not doing anything else. In one game I thought to return the favour and sent 7 siege frigates at the AI homeworld. A few turrets to defend, and eventually the cap came in, but too late to stop my frigates.

Eventually, the AI builds a decent fleet, but not until it's done siege raids for about 2 hours.
Reply #43 Top

See, there's the issue duhman. You play against Hard AI. It's been said repeatedly, this is something the Easy AI exploits. And it does it over and over and over and over again, not doing anything else. In one game I thought to return the favour and sent 7 siege frigates at the AI homeworld. A few turrets to defend, and eventually the cap came in, but too late to stop my frigates.

Eventually, the AI builds a decent fleet, but not until it's done siege raids for about 2 hours.
End of quote
Here's my last piece of advice then:
Take your fleet (1 capital ship and an assortment of frigates should be enough), and kill those siege ships. If you can't find them / reach them / etc., then go attack their obviously undefended homeworld since they spent all their moolah on siege ships. That will bring the ships to you, then you can kill them. The AI on easy (as its namesake) takes 10 years to build anything decent, so there shouldn't be a problem with this.

It also works if the human player you're playing on multi does this as well. (theoretically)

After that, try normal or hard instead. =P But you shouldn't have a problem with this any longer since the devs already said they were going to reduce the ship's HP.

If there's still a problem with this, I'll play a game over the weekend and take screenshots or a movie and post here if you like.
Reply #44 Top
Duhman definitely has the hang of how the AI works with its siege raids :P

But if you don't like my constant offense tactics... I dunno... the TEC have that planetary shield you could use. I like to build two of those per planet for no reason.
End of quote


You just need one, as long as you make sure to do its other upgrade to increase damage reduction. I've been able to keep a shielded asteroid alive against 20ish siege frigates and it didn't even take 1000 damage from them - static defenses only :P
Reply #45 Top
I HAVE MA-NY HU-MAN OP-PO-NENTS. AT FIRST, I USED THE PER-FECT TAC-TIC AND SEND A HUGE FLEET OF SIEGE FRI-GATES AND DESTROYED THEIR WORLDS. HOW-EV-ER, NOW, THE HU-MANS DE-FEAT THEM. WHAT SHOULD I DO? IF THE UL-TI-MATE TAC-TIC DOES NOT WORK, ALL RO-BOTS ARE DOOMED.

I WILL TRY RANDOM TAC-TICS LIKE HUGE FLEETS OF SCOUTS OR MAY-BE HUGE FLEETS OF CAR-RI-ERS (I KNOW, THE CAR-RI-ER IS USELESS AS IT HAS NO PLA-NET KILL-ING CA-PA-BI-LI-TY, BUT WHAT CAN A RO-BOT-DO). MAY-BE A HUGE FLEET OF COL-O-NI-ZERS.

IN-TER-ROG-A-TIVE: ANY TIPS TO KILL HU-MAN OP-PO-NENTS?
Reply #46 Top
Suggestion for AI, in response to unb's Reply #45: learn to save and reload. If all else fails, crash before they take your homeworld. That'll teach 'em.
Reply #47 Top
Updated the OP with a few more cool tips from this thread! Keep 'em coming folks, some good stuff here :)
Reply #48 Top
I actually found dealing with pirates fairly easy in my second game, only had any trouble in my first in which i was just screwing around.
Reply #49 Top
does the level of your success against pirates influence how prone they are to attacking you or is that enitrely dependent on the bounty on you?
Reply #50 Top
continuing my game yesterday i found out that Planetary shields and increasing the planet hp are indeed very useful against the siege spam. Didnt loose one planet to them, even though sometimes it took me quite a while to get reinforcements there.
Thanks to those who pointed it out, i guess my whining yesterday was a bit premature.

Anyways, i still think the Siege Frigate nerf is a good thing, doesn´t hurt their legitimate use, but it´ll be a good thing if they´re a little bit less of an annoyance in the early game.