It a question of Pirate Economy...

from Sins Forums
There is plenty of discussion in the forums about Love/Hate of the pirates. What I want to talk about is specifically the Pirate’s Economy. The devs have mad a big deal about how the AI does not cheat. But what about the pirate AI. Does it need money from the bounties to build ships? Do they get a cut from any black market transactions? How do they seem to start with so many ships?

It would make sense to me that the pirates need to make money to build ships. Yes, the pirates were here long before any of us came to try to subjugate the system. So that can explain how they start with so many ships. But if they are loosing ships every time they go chasing a bounty, then that bounty better be worth enough to more then pay for those lost ships. If not the pirates should retreat at the first sine of a capital ship that could actually slaughter their fleets. I’m Ok with the pirates going out on suicide missions so long as the monetary reward is big enough to warrant the risk. Especially if the corrupt "Admiral Black Beards" of the pirate consortiums don’t give a crap about human life, even their own captains.

So my question to the devs, now that the game is actually out, is "How does this all work?" Could you please break it down for us? If the pirates get a cut out of the black market I’ll be much more careful about how much I use it ;-)
41,410 views 25 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
The pirate raids simply spawn out of thin air based on bounty amounts and how built up the players are. They're not a player so much as a game mechanic, so the 'cheat' description doesn't really apply.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
hmm so if i were to put 5k bounty on one player - they would have a massive fleet of pirates coming to say hi?
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
Indeed, a bounty war can be disasterous if you get up to 10K-20K and you end up losing the bid. Your system becomes solid red... :-(
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
Oh boy. I'm up to 20k now but haven't lost the bid yet, now I'm scared of what will happen if I do.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
My friend had a 30k bounty on him in a game against AI, they weren't that big a problem to deal with.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Here's what the manual says about them...

Threat Indicator – Shows the current estimate of the size of the next pirate attack
in the galaxy based on the total bounty, the number of lucrative raid targets and other
factors. In general, when there is more profit to be made, there are more pirates to be had.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
they arent too hard to deal with if you just build loads of turrets on a chokepoint planet, also stops those pesky scouts getting past to scout your planets :)

at one point in a 2v2 game i had 29 advent beam turrets and a 10k pirate fleet came, i didnt lose a single turret... overlapping fields of fire are great :)
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
Since the Pirates do not have an economy right now, this is PRIME real estate for Star Dock and Iron Clad's famous updates. I don't mind them cheating for now, but in the long run, with them really being a player in their own right, they REALLY do need to have rules that they follow. An economy of their own and motivations from self preservation to greed would GREATLY enhance the game play.

What do all you think about how a Pirate economy should work?
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Trav, if you're gonna have a pirate economy then you'll have to have someplace to get rum from. True story.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
Oh we have plans....many, many plans. Hehehe.  :HOT: 
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Yay Stardock!

I've heard nothing but praise for SD's after-sell support, patch and content releases. I'm really looking forward to seeing it in action!
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
OP, if you're looking for real numbers, pirate strength appears to be based on the following lines from gameplay.constants:

(note, I have no idea what determines the total number of pirate ships in a raid, just the rough percentages of ship types in that fleet)

strengthPerOwnedPlanet .10
strengthPerCargoShip .0025
strengthPerBounty .00003
...
raidStrengthThreshold:0 0
raidStrengthThreshold:1 .25
raidStrengthThreshold:2 .45
raidStrengthThreshold:3 .7
raidStrengthThreshold:4 .9

pirateRaidComposition:0
requiredShipCount 0
randomShipCount 4
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateScout"
weight 10
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateMedium"
weight 2
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateHeavy"
weight 1
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateAntiFighter"
weight 3

pirateRaidComposition:1
requiredShipCount 0
randomShipCount 5
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateScout"
weight 4
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateMedium"
weight 10
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateHeavy"
weight 2
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateAntiFighter"
weight 3
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateSiege"
weight 2

pirateRaidComposition:2
requiredShipCount 0
randomShipCount 5
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateScout"
weight 2
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateMedium"
weight 8
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateHeavy"
weight 5
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateAntiFighter"
weight 3
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateSiege"
weight 3

pirateRaidComposition:3
requiredShipCount 0
randomShipCount 4
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateMedium"
weight 6
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateHeavy"
weight 7
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateAntiFighter"
weight 3
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateSiege"
weight 3

pirateRaidComposition:4
requiredShipCount 0
randomShipCount 4
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateMedium"
weight 6
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateHeavy"
weight 7
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateAntiFighter"
weight 3
randomShip
type "FrigatePirateSiege"
weight 3
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
Oh we have plans....many, many plans. Hehehe.
End of quote


:CONGRAT: I want it NOW!! :d :LOL:
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
they arent too hard to deal with if you just build loads of turrets on a chokepoint planet, also stops those pesky scouts getting past to scout your planets

at one point in a 2v2 game i had 29 advent beam turrets and a 10k pirate fleet came, i didnt lose a single turret... overlapping fields of fire are great
End of quote


yea Pirates are really only a threat in early game... once you have turrents and hangers they really arn't much of an issue. I stacked a choke planet entry vector with turrents supported with 3 hangers and the pirate fleets hung just outside the gravity well too afraid to take on the turrents... in which case my bombers and fighters whittled them down without them ever even comming into the inner system.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
My friend had a 30k bounty on him in a game against AI, they weren't that big a problem to deal with.
End of quote


After hours on a map with 6 or so systems, and 2 of the 3 AI vanquished, a bidding war broke out escalating to just under 500K. I didn't notice a huge amount of difference in the raiding parties, and having destroyed 1 of the 2 pirates bases in the 'Pirate System', I descended upon the remaining base expecting the usual defences. Much to my surprise the Pirates had accumulated a total of about 400 ships. It took both my Capital Ship fleets to finally subdue them after numerous hit and runs. Why they didn't just storm through my neighbouring Planets I'm not sure, but thank the Heavens they didn't.
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
I wish there was more of a happy medium between pirates and no pirates. Like an option to dictate pirate activity. In my first game I spent as much time dealing with pirates as doing anything else and dealing with them was the least enjoyable anything else I was trying to do. I wouldn't want NO pirates though. :-/
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
In my experience the pirates are kind of a joke. Even when you start with no HQ and no units, simply getting a single capital ship out is enough to defeat the first pirate raid, and it doesn't take very much damage, even. So, the enemy just spent some money to give you free experience... I am 100% honest in saying that in some cases, if there was a way to put bounty on yourself, I would do it, to get the pirates to attack me and generate easy experience at minimal threat. Granted, I've only really played on maps up to 20 planets, so maybe their mechanics change dramatically on bigger maps.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
I too generally view pirates as "free experience" for my capital ships. I do bid them up to have the pirates go after an AI player from one direction while I attack from another just to mess them up some. Haven't played any PVP games though, just co-op vs. lots of hard AI players (who really aren't that hard at the moment!).
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
Wouldnt pirates make their primary income from the bounty money?

Wouldnt that make sense??

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
There's a cap on the size of the fleet the pirates will send out, I believe. Should be just above the lines KeithLamothe pasted in here. I think its around 240 or so fleet points.

I've been tempted to up that to around 750ish for a game and see what happens to the size of the raiding parties.
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
Here are some ideas i have for a pirate economy

1. Pirates should get their income from bounties, black market, and some blood money on the side cause they are organized crime after all...

2. They should have to build (pay for) their own ships. I wouldn’t mind if their ships were, on average, cheaper then a normal player. They are scoundrels after all with alot less red tape. This will aslo mean they value the worth of their ships. Suicide missions should only be attempted if the pay out makes it worth the risk.

3. They need to be able to scout, this way they can know were their target is most vulnerable. This is the most logical place to attack. Least losses for the most pay out.

And finally this next one is in two parts. first is a general game idea then how the pirates should exploit it.

4. a. Capital ships should be capturable. If a cap ship dies, rather then exploding it should turn into a derelict first. Then a repair cruiser (from any side) could come along and help revive it. Possibly with some negative effects until re-crewed and fully repaired at a planet.

4. b. The pirates should be be experts at capturing Cap ships. While this should be quite a masterful feat to accomplish, it would provide a definite motivation for a head on some what suicidal attack. if they were able to carry off a capital ship as a prize, just think what that would do for the game! And think what it would do if YOU could carry of an enemy’s capital ship as a prize!

Ideas, Comments, Concerns?
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
Ehh, I dunno, that would mean that you should be able to counter it, and capture ANY destroyed ship, in my opinion, which would cause total chaos.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
The pirate raids simply spawn out of thin air based on bounty amounts and how built up the players are. They're not a player so much as a game mechanic, so the 'cheat' description doesn't really apply.
End of quote

Is there any chance of having a pirate raid from a pirate base under attack focus on the attackers instead of running around the galaxy to go hit someone's planets? Or a raid from that base just not spawning at all when the pirate base is below a certain percentage of its hit points? It's kind of annoying to be leveling a pirate base and then a raid dispatches and you have to go jump out of the pirate system to chase down the raiders as they go after one of your planets.
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
I'm not sure what exactly the correlation is between money spent, threat indicated, and the size of pirate raids. One guy got his own bounty up to like 60k one game, killing all my billions of little trade drones and getting karmic retribution bounty on himself. I saw the attack force leaving the pirate base, it wasn't really much bigger than a force you would get for maybe 5-10k bounty. Pirates really need boss units (capital ships) to send out randomly, or for extremely high bounty and threat amounts. Would make things more interesting.
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
Here's yet another pirate economy idea:

All player ships have a chance of mutiny (maybe except Caps). The chance increases based on several factors:

1. Allegiance of current system.
2. Chance to 'sneak away' (proximity to other ships in the fleet).
3. Facing overwhelming odds or great and repeated losses.

Bounty allows pirates to develop their homeworld, bribe nearby ships / systems. Pirates don't bother with mines, but do actively go after trade and refinery ships, and the returns on those can be spent on upgrades, securing bribed systems.

This could make the pirates playable, non-cheating, and add some RP depth to the game.