Phase jump inhibitors

Out of curiosity I would like to know the answer to this question as well. That being said I really have no complaints about how the game plays, though I find the ability to lock down jump lanes to be an interesting concept.

"Without having any other info, it seems to me that being able to create strategic hardpoints with phase jump inhibitors (ones which would completely stop all phase jumping) would be a desirable thing."

Unless its your fleet attacking. The total jump shutdown was a very early beta mechanic (2?). The B4 version I thought had it right. Just stop them from going deeper into your empire, not from retreating.

Well, at first in early beta the PJI halted jumping out completely. This of course would mean that people could create Deathstar-like choke points full of defenses and a fleet, that the opponent would have no choice but to attack - and then unable to escape if anything went wrong.

As you can imagine, that wouldn't be very fun. It would cause people to spend way too much trying to build up a fleet capable of destroying an enemy fleet + defenses, which isn't easy by any means.

The old argument for keeping that PJI was "Well, people should use scouts so they don't jump into a death trap" - which is true, but scout or not if that's the only thing you can attack (which does happen) a death 'trap' just becomes a pit of death instead because you're just throwing ships at it hoping to break through.

After that, the PJI evolved into blocking jumps into friendly territory. So half of the functionality remained the same, the enemy had to destroy it to move forward. So it kept the 'pit of death' problem, but it allowed the attacker to retreat if the battle wasn't going well so at least he wouldn't have to rebuild from scratch.

In come superweapons, that are usually built in the heart of your empire, and can hit anywhere. So with the PJI the way it was it created a rather large problem with you bashing your head in the pit of death, unable to get to the weapon to destroy it. Thus we come to the current iteration of the PJI, which slows phasing out by 250% - still encouraging attackers to destroy it because those 18 extra seconds of charge-up time could be quite important, but now it's no longer an invincible pit of death.

Of course it would be "cool" to trap an enemy fleet, make it unable to escape and blow it to bits, and the AI wouldn't care. But if it was in Multiplayer, and you had to attack that PJI-equipped 35-point planet with a fleet the same size as yours defending it, unable to jump out - how fun would it be for you? And how balanced would it be?

I think a great solution to this would be to steal a gameplay mechanic from Company Of Heroes. Allow a tech research that gives your fleets the option of retreating through hyperspace. This forces them to retreat to the capital home world at the cost of time in hyper space. I'm sure something like this could be engineered. That way you could still retreat from a battle, but not run amok like the current system has players doing.

Ahh...now that makes sense actually, never thought about that. Good reason to nerf the PJI's then, I couldn't figure out what had led to that decision but I suspect it was something like this combined with the Deathstars (which I probably contributed to , turtle all the way!)

From what I have read so far (still waiting on ebgames to get my copy ) the old version sounds like it was horribly overpowered and the new sounds kinda underpowered but as I have said I haven't got to play yet so can't really comment one way or another but for some reason when ever I read about it I can't help thinking how cool it would be if a happy medium was struck where the PJI became a cannon that fire's X amount of shots at any random target's attempting to phase jump within its range and disables those ships phase engines for however long there by splitting up the fleet and causing the attacker some problems if they decide to bypass the system would probably have to limit the number of cannons allowed or something as well.

sorry for it being a bit off topic heh early in morning here and that was kinda eating at my brain as I read the post as to the original post I would imagine that the tester feed back was their main reason for nerfing it. I just can't see many people who would be pleased that someone could potentially set up a system with nothing but defenses and a pji at a choke point and create essentially un-escapable wall requiring a special fleet or tactics to breach if thats how it was working. I am kind of a fan of turtling myself so can see how it could be rather annoying. As to why the extended time for phase jump I imagine they figured that it would allow time for the defender to consolidate their forces for a counter attack and possibly inflict some decent damage on the attacker before they were able to depart.

Okay, I got the explanation. Thanks.

I wasn't part of the beta, but I actually don't like the rationale for nerfing the PJI, as I'm reading it here. It seems to me that one needs the ability to create strategic strong points - it makes little sense not to have this, otherwise practically any world can be attacked at any time, anywhere, and you can't simply be at all places at all times with your fleets, and you can't max out all defenses at all places at all times.

I don't mind the way you said they modified the PJI initially, to allow you to jump back out to the system where you attacked from, in order to bail out on the attack (but not be able to go deeper into your empire). That's fine, even great. I don't like it the way it is now. If the problem is the superweapon, then quite honestly I would much rather have a much reduced (nerfed) superweapon, or no superweapon at all, but not a nerfed PJI. First off, I have never cared for superweapons in strategy games anyway. Second off, it simply isn't a good trade in my opinion, to get a superweapon while trading off the idea of strategic use and control of phase lanes and star systems.

The way the game is now, you can basically be attacked anywhere, at any time, and it's the phase jump musical chairs ballet thing. I don't like this gameplay mechanic. Essentially, they have made it so that controlling a nexus of phase lanes is useless as a strategic idea. You can't control a system which has a bunch of phase lanes fanning off of it going into different systems - fleets can simply come right in and phase jump right off to the next system whether you own that system or not. It makes the entire idea of a phase lane useless from a strategic standpoint (you can't really control them), and it certainly makes star systems useless strategically (their only use seems to be economic).

BRING BACK THE ABILITY TO STRATEGICALLY CONTROL PHASE LANES AND STAR SYSTEMS!

I do understand the reasoning behind the PJI nerf, but I still think that they are too weak right now and I think there would be a way to improve them without making them overpowered again:

Give the PJIs an activated ability which should either
a) block all phase jumps out AND in for all ships, friend or foe (basically a full phase space disruption) for x seconds.
block phase jumps out of the well in a radius around the PJI for x seconds (so depending on placement either stops fleets from hopping through the system or from retreating).
c) increase the charge up time for phase jumps by x % while active.

[Why x? Read on ;P]
Maybe one of the above for all races or maybe even different abilities for different races...


This would obviously need a few restrictions.
1) Only ONE PJI per gravwell to prevent people from spamming the ability using multiple PJIs.
2) The ability is unlocked after researching a follow-up to the PJI research, one or even two tiers higher, depending on race.
3) The follow-up has multiple levels increasing the effects (20-30-40 seconds or so for blocks/ 1000-1500-2000 % for charge)
4) High cooldown on the ability, 10mins? Or even 15? (maybe reduced a bit through research?)

Or give the PJIs AM which is depleted over time, like c_moliner suggested for use in an interdictor ship.



Anyways this is my suggestion to buff the PJIs somewhat, which imho would make them useful again, without making them overpowered.
If I'm wrong please tell me ;D

I'd like to suggest that in addition to there current effects that PJI's also slow the movement speed of of enemy fleets in the phase lane. E.g., if you jump within the range of an enemy PJI your phase lane movement is slowed by X percent.

This would effectively give advantage to the defenders strategic movement of defensive fleets in his/her own territory. My concern here is that if you have a system with a defensive fleet and someone bypasses it giving chase can be rather slow with any significant sized fleet when everyone has to line up. You could of course begin your jump before the enemy fleet leaves. However, this is very easy to miss-time and if you jump first your screwed since your enemy can just cancel his jump and attack the current system until you get back. With this mod however a defensive fleet giving chase could initiate it's jump right after the aggressor jumps and have a reasonable chance of arriving at the destination system first.

The net effect of this is that bypassing static defenses still remains easy, but bypassing mobile defenses (fleets) becomes more difficult. In my mind this is how it should be.

Company of Heroes allowed retreating through hyperspace?

I worry that a mechanic like this would make it too easy for a marauder to escape if he/she becomes caught far behind enemy lines.

I think the easiest and simplest thing to do is make the PJI inhibit all jumps except back through where the jumper came from. This dodges all of the complexity that one of the posters above suggested, but most important of all it allows STRATEGIC CONTROL OF PHASE LANES AND STAR SYSTEMS.

Right now star systems basically have an economic/logistical use, and that's it. Phase lanes have no strategic use whatsoever. The game has degenerated down to a lot of TACTICAL play with hit and run attacks, phase gate hopscotch, etc. (basically all micromanagement) but less STRATEGIC play which the game was (apparently) intended to provide. The ability to control a choke point is a strategic idea, and bringing it back into the game would provide for much needed strategic play.

I'm not sure why this PJI idea was considered "OP" before. If the rationale truly was that someone might turtle and build a superweapon way back in his empire somewhere, 1) does the need for a superweapon in the game outweigh the idea of strategic control of phase lanes - something that would seem to be a key idea in a game like this, and 2) couldn't the superweapon be nerfed instead of the PJI?

Hey, it's still a great game - I'm not complaining. And fortunately, the fix I am suggesting would be REALLY easy to implement, if the developers chose to do it, because apparently it used to be set up that way anyway in a previous beta. I'm just for maxing out strategy, and it just seems a no-brainer that the game should allow for strategic control of phase lane choke points. Otherwise, change the description to RTT (real-time tactical) instead of RTS, LOL. I mean, what sort of serious war game doesn't include strategic use and control of territory? Wouldn't it be better for the game to revolve around controlling, defending, and attacking strategic choke point areas rather than revolve around harassing and raiding and playing phase lane musical chairs?

I don't think it would, and I say this as someone who is extremely good at the kind of game play your advocating. The problem, IMO, is that holding one or two strategic becomes and extremely effective strategy that is very simple to do, and the fact that is is simple to do makes the game play less interesting.

I do agree with you that the "hopscotch" that occurs now isn't ideal either as it is extremely difficult to pin down a marauding ships that simply warp out when defensive ships enter the system.

I think that causing enemy ships to move down a phase lane slower if they jump within range of a PJI, is a good middle ground. This still allows for marauding, but gives a strategic advantage to defending fleets. A marauding fleet that warps out within range of a PJI when a strong defending fleet arrives, now faces the prospect of seeing that fleet when imediately when it emerges from the phase lane. This makes it easier to eliminate marauders or clean up destroyed empires when you effectively control and area with PJI's. Of course if you have strong defenses in your outer systems and weak inner systems you'll need a strong defensive fleet to chase down a marauder that bypass your outer defenses, but that's a price for no investing in defenses for your inner systems.

I had actually quit commenting on threads like this because a developer had said they didn't plan on reverting the PJI back the way it was, so after more play testing (just to make sure I wasn't missing something) I decided to just quit playing the game altogether. However, a developer just invited people to make more posts on this thread, so here I am.

To comment on what you say above, I suppose it comes down to a matter of preference. Some apparently prefer the game dynamic I described. Some apparently prefer the game dynamic you advocate. I'd argue that what I described is more "traditional" (less interesting to you) and what you advocate is more "exotic" (more interesting to you). I'd venture to guess that more people would prefer the traditional dynamic, not the exotic one. Assuming the developers couldn't please everyone due to time/budgetary constraints, it would probably make more business sense to please the majority.

But heck, it probably wouldn't be too much trouble to have an option while setting up a game to completely remove the PJI and the superweapon from the game (I have to believe that the game engine is already set up to be able to easily add/remove units). What this would do is allow the developers to "soup up" the PJI. Then those of us who want to play with a good PJI could have it. Those who don't want the PJI would just drop it and play without it (which would be no loss to you guys as this is essentially what you have now - an ineffective PJI). And those who are worried about an effective PJI's effect on the superweapon can just drop the superweapon from the game. This "please everybody" approach wouldn't work though if the game isn't already set up to easily drop units from the game - would probably require too much overhaul from the devs.

Being able to defend chokepoints is important, because otherwise, there's no difference between a thinly-connected system and a wide-open one. The map differences cease to matter.

The PJI is the key structure that makes maps play out very differently. Right now, it's broken because it doesn't do what it's supposed to.

It is possible to make it functional (totally locking down phase lanes, say) while still having problems like the superweapon use fixed. If firing the superweapon temporarily shut down its owners' PJIs, it would leave him vulnerable to counterattack, and I think it would offer the best of both worlds.

There are many simple ways this could be fixed, though, this suggestion is just one possibility. However, the PJI does need to be much more effective than it is in 1.02 to make the maps interesting and meaningful.

I like this idea alot. PJI cannot be allowed to prevent phasing out like in the beta. The trap of death situation as well as the inability to kill super weapons means this has to be. However a combination of a much much longer phase out time as well as a slower velocity to the next planet would work perfectly.

This would allow the phase lane owner to respond with mobile forces when human players simply bypass outer defense lines. It would also mean phase lane tag as we know it would still exist but the window between jumps would be sufficient to allow for some decisive combat. At the same time it leaves the option for an attacker to push deep into an enemy's lands to attack a super weapon. Due to the extended travel time the attacker will have to commit serious forces to such an attempt and due to the travel time penalty the defender will have additional time to arrange for mobile defenses to back up whatever static defenses the super weapon has. That said though it alleviates the phase tag, leaves open the option of trying to snipe super weapons deep in enemy territory and helps with the problem of human players simply bypassing outer worlds and racing for more important targets.

There are some problems with this- a slower velocity for enemies next to the planet is a strong advantage for the defending player. It would enable the defender to out-maneuver the attacker in planetary combat. I don't think we want to make PJIs double as wide-area debuffers like that, it would only make the "death trap" more potent when someone actually tries to assault it.

I think the idea is to slow the actual phase travel, not their movement within the gravwell.

Instead of simply relying on phase inhibitors, couple them with active defenses like Subjugator frigates and Evacuators with Gravity Warheads.

The game should be about fleet battles anyway, not bashing your head against defenses. That's why defenses are so cheap.

Even if all PJIs do is slow an attacker down, it gives you plenty of time to savage them. Free shots from abilities like Cleansing Brilliance mean it will be a very leaky attack force that arrives to attack your planet.

I also think that this is a great idea. An attacker would be able to reach systems deep in your empire, but it will be more difficult to get out - a defender fleet has a chance to actually catch the attacker (due to greater speed) and fight them (due to a prolonged phase out time). Maybe it would make sense to make the phase out time needed to reach "enemy systems" much greater than the time needed to retreat to your own empire.

So you would have the option to perform raids deep into enemy terrotory, but it would not be the "no-brainer" it is now, because you have to think about getting your fleet out again. Additionally, the prolonged phase out time to enemy systems would make choke points more viable as they are now, while avoiding the death-trap problem, because you can retreat to your own empire at the same speed as it is now.

Actually, inhibiting phase jumps through your territory and forcing people to fight through planetary defenses sounds less strategic. I'd rather they just increase the time it takes for ships to jump again. Maybe a minute or so.

Then I suppose we have different definitions of what constitutes "strategic." Control of territory and points on a map is a classic example of strategic thinking, going back to probably thousands of years.

So are feints, circumventing enemy forces, and dividing enemy forces. Wouldn't you say?

It limits your strategic choices; raiding and attacking weak spots becomes nearly impossible. Bashing your head against 250 credit gauss cannons is a losing economic proposition.

Precisely my point, I shouldn't be forced to fight a massive enemy force if my intention is to disrupt his economy, or simply district him.