Please add design-a-ship ability!

I think this would be a really bad idea. You've got to remember that SINS isn't exactly the same type of 4X as Civ or GalCiv. It's all real-time, the UI is focussed around letting you micromanage battles as much as you like while still remaining in command of your empire and its full capabilities. If you add a ship editor that's in-game, then suddenly there's this thing which is gonna take 15-20 minutes of real time. So either you're doing this and while it's going on other stuff is happening, like your empire being destroyed. So either the editor is made so that you can still see what's happening everywhere and rapidly switch focus to fighting, in which case it will be really annoying to pop into the editor, get attacked, fix that, pop into the editor, research finished, fix that, pop into the editor, pirate raid, fix that, back to the editor. And while that problem might be solved by pausing the game while you're running the editor, please keep in mind that SINS is also a multiplayer game, and mechanics that involve pausing a multiplayer RTS are not super-great mechanics.

Then there's the fact that the entire tech tree would most likely have to be overhauled, as well as the ship production building UIs.

In short, the only way I see that happening is an editor that's outside of the game, and that would bring problems of its own such as hackability. I think that it's much better to have a static number of dev-created ships, albeit a whole hell of a lot of them (my big want for the first major content patch - more ships). Enough that there really is one for every role as well as a couple of JOATs, which of course also means master of none.

Basically, my problem with the idea is that the "simple" solution requires overhauling the entire tech tree/research and shipbuilding mechanic for a feature that really wouldn't fit the game anyway.

The devs stated that such a feature would be too tedious to be issued in an RTS game.

How would you manage your empire and design ships at the same time? This ain't a turn based game. That's actually the reason why we can't design ships. It doesn't seem feasible in real-time.

However, there's always Galactic Civilizations II with plenty of ship designing!

Dawn of Victory implements this, as it's a more micro, military and fleet oriented mod. You can see some of my progress on it here and a further explanation at the SSP forums here. It's really not a very good idea for a empire-building game when you have so much to manage already, but it tends to work well for smaller-scale stuff

But it was done before! The Earth 2150/2160 series of command-and-conquer style of fast-paced RTS games (very popular in Germany) made it feasible. Go to Gamespot to read the reviews of Earth 2150 and Earth 2160 (and The Moon Project expansion).

For example, you researched different types of components for your tanks -- while playing in real time (base building, scouting, fighting) -- then designed and constructed tanks to suit your needs and gameplay-style preferences. All that was done on smaller maps and in the heat of a faster tactical pace than a relatively slower empire-builder game such as SINS.

That RTS series proved that it could be done. The people at Stardock and Ironclad know that. It is then mostly a business situation :

Will the profits derived from SINS's sale-volume justify future expansion(s)?
Is there a sufficient demand for that ship-design feature in the customer market?

Of course, ship design cannot be added in a patch or a bonus-pack! SD and IC would have to invest a lot of person-hours of paid work to add that feature.

But don't tell me it would be "too tedious" and not "feasible". It was done, in at least 3 quality RTS games, and since SINS is not a C&C/Red-Alert style of RTS, being somewhat closer to grand-strategic games such as GalCiv, it would be an ideal game to integrate ship design and customization -- as an option (you could always limit yourself to the default ship models).

Since SINS was very recently released, it is of course very premature, for SD and IC, to open that door. Those of you who really want that ship-design feature should be vocal, apply pressure and express your interest.

Personally, I don't care : but don't tell me it can't be done. If it can sell even more games, it will be done!

it would just be stupid to make a ship design when ur playing a game of sins since it would take up a lot of time.... an editor that works outside of the game would be cool though but i think the devs said they wouldn't make one for sins since its not galactic civs. they also said we best use a 3d design program to make our own ship designs.

Well if it is too much work for a patch then certainly an idea for an expansion. I think it could sell!

But I think comments like "it is stupid" are no help at all! You know it would be Optional part of the game and you wouldn't have to use it, but it could add a lot as well! Yes I played GalCiv as well ;-D

But like I said I think it would be ok just to use previous models as well I don't think people would complain too much about graphics. I like the component idea mentioned above for the Earth 2xxxx games, something like that would be neat.

Perhaps it could auto-pause when you go into ship designer screen?? Or better yet a mini ship designer window/overlay which can run at the same time as while you're on the main map screen?

For multiplayer yes that could be a problem but a solution might be to have limited designer ability in multiplayer (say, can research small number of hulls/components) or option to disable/enable entirely?

So I think it could add even more attraction to the game, be OPTIONAL so those who don't like it or want it don't have to use it and could be used to draw even more people from games like Starships Unlimited! Galciv or the other 4X games maybe like Space Empires which have this feature. I can't remember all of them but I know quite a few have this feature.

Earth 2150 is on an infinitely smaller scale than Sins, and so was Warzone 2100 (another game that did).

Really, not too many people have been demanding this feature (I may be wrong), and the only reason it is even brought up is because of Gal Civ 2.

Perhaps I'm being too negative.

It would still be cool to have an outside editor. That would be cool......cool I tell you cool......yea......

That sounds better.

As long as it's optional, it's fine by me. Careful when you try to design something while in a hurry though. How about multiplayer? Maybe change the look of your ships before even starting a game (MMO character creation style)? Load your favorite designs from game to game? That would be interesting, but it's purely cosmetic and there's too much to do in real time already.

On the Pc gamer podcast, they said, "We are trying to implement custom ship design for the release." That means they may give it to us in a patch

nahh. i dont wana disign a ship option. to busy makeing them to care what they look like

What? They said that there?!

Are you sure that wasn't another game... ./digs up the darned podcast....

BTW, the devs have clearly stated in the past that in-game ship design wouldn't occur (for release! All bets are off now because we can play with expansions and sequels ) because of the constraints of playing in real-time.

That said, we need to clarify what we mean by "ship design" and what we would -- or wouldn't -- want in it.

Things that would not work: GalCiv II style graphics designing. A) this would obviously take too much time to do in game, and an out of game editor wouldn't work because in an RTS situation we need to recognize ships "at a glance", not spend time figuring out what it is.

I can't think of anything else to add to this, but I'm sure someone (else) will

Things that could work: Slot based design. When you research a "hull" type, instead of getting it complete with weapons, amour, and shields, instead you get to install those yourself into various "slots". You'd be limited by slot size, maximum tonnage, and whatever equipment you have produced. You'll be able to change weapon type (laser, autocannon, beam), and tonnage (10KT, 20KT), which implies weapon damage (30 DPS, 40DPS), but not weapon "size" (e. g. a garda flak frigate will always do anti-very light damage). Same applies for shields and armor -- you can change how much armor, but not what "type" (light, capitol, etc) the unit has. This preserves the ability to identify "at a glance" a given unit type. You can then assign a class name but not designation to the unit. E. G. instead of Cobalt light frigate I'd have Solar Bean Light Frigates which shoot high-level beam cannons at the enemy.

Such slot based design could take -- literally -- mere seconds as you just grab and shove appropriate components in.

Things that would need hashing out include firing arcs -- can I change / control the firing arcs? -- unit behavior -- can the unit deal with having its weapons shifted around? -- and the oh-so-obvious "will this fit in an expansion, or must we relegate it to a sequel"? Another thing to consider is possible "performance" "issues" -- maybe make higher tonnage ships move slower, and you have to research / place higher level engines to get them to move faster. You could also place power supplies in there too -- they produce / store antimatter at a rate determined by weapons / shields / engine drain (more powerful a generator, faster the antimatter rate, more powerful the equipment, the more power it drains and the less antimatter you get).

Personally, I hope they add it to an expansion, I'd clamor for it for a sequel, and I'll be disappointed if something of the sort doesn't make it in.

It's quite simple really.... Pause the game while your designing ships... Ship designing shouldn't be allowed in multiplayer but in single player mode I don't see what the big deal is... Or just use a function outside of the game like from the main menu

Time would be no problem whatsoever for an in-game editor, as said above, just have the game pause when you're designing your ships. Actually I must add, real time is no obstacle at all for an uber-complex game, just look at the Paradox games, they are all real time!

This thing would be absolutely optional and probably disabled in multi player, so really there wouldn't be any disadvantages for the player. For the devs there might be some: They have to develop it and it would further diminish the advantages of GalCiv, which might not be in the interest of Stardock.

EDIT: uups, too slow. But it emphasizes my point: Real time clearly, clearly is no obstacle to ship design

I don't think it would be possible to implement a ship design feature in a running game, unless it's singleplayer only, where it auto-pauses the game when you enter it and let you tinker around with stuff.. It would probably be a bad idea in multiplayer, since the game would still be running in the background, as well as it might get too complex to efficiently counter a custom model of a ship, since everyone now facing your über-pimped ship of doom will have to design a specific ship to fight it.

Also, pricing the finished ship could be a problem as a weak model (say a slightly overpowered frig) shouldn't cost the same as the "heavy cruiser of doom and domination" that launches black holes and can conquer planets by frowning at them.

And if all it amounts to are stock models, where everyone can get the same, you might as well just expand the tech tree a bit, which will probably happen in an expansion anyway.

What could be cool, however, is the option to customize skins and icons and maybe add a paint option similar to the the one in the DoW series. This would obviously be done in the same way as in DoW, which is out of game.

Ron describes it very well! Yes by ship design I mean actual component changes for a hull type and not spending time painting them and adding spoilers

So just like Ron describes! Perhaps a new Tech Tree called Modular Technology??

1) So you research the basic hull.
2) Then you can research modules like shields, engines.
3) Then you can put the modules in the hull slots.
4) Save the design for next time ;-D
5) Produce!

So! just like now you have Fleet Points which determine how many cap ships and other things you can have, same for Module Points which can determine what modules a Modular Ship can take.

I really don't think a modular/slot method like that would take very long times since it is just extra researching and building options. Maybe cost more and take longer but that would be the price of modular ships. So you could spend the time and resources on the regular pre defined ships or instead invest in modular ones, so it sort of balances out.

Just one example! Say you want different defense platform instead of Missile Defense around your planet.

1) Research "Modular Defense Platform"
2) Research "Modular Laser"
3) Produce a MDP, and then "upgrade" it with the modular laser.
4) (save the Laser Tower design)
5) Produce Laser Towers as you would normal installations.

See, it wouldn't take such huge times? Yet it could add so much variety as well!

Given the nature of this game, I would prefer better fleet options than a lot of cosmetic choices. Keep... it... simple...



See? I really like this suggestion.

I miss the option Homeworld used to have for a few different paint schemes (not just team color, but more general hull colors too). Before the game was release I was really looking forward to it, in some shots the Advent hulls looked orange and in others blue, but alas I guess it was just ambient color tinting the image.

And that helps multiplayer... how?

Its really useless to have designing ships if you can't use the feature in multiplayer!

Or are you guys talking about graphical ship design?

Please clearly label what it is your asking for before we all go insane!.



Actually, the system I described would require a complete re-do of the current tech trees. Instead of researching % based upgrades to lasers, misiles, etc, you'd research new types of weapon... wait, thats a 4X research tree!

As indicated before I'm very much in favor of ship design, which is ironic, because in GalCiv I don't use it that extensively.

One of the major benefits is that you can customize the weapons your ship uses, much in the way Ron and xbluedragonx describe it above. You can concentrate on whatever weapon you favor and - if the game allows you to - react to circumstances and built the kind of weaponry best suited to defeat your enemy.

The other is advantage is that you can change the shape of your ships. Noobs like me can only create faint impressions of the Enterprise or such, but pros can really pull it of. Anyone want to use Battlestar Galactica as carrier ship?

Changing weapons could be done quite quickly and thus could work in multi player. To really make it shine it would require a different tech tree, though, that's true

More extensive ship design a la GalCiv should be restricted to single player. You should be able to save the finished designs though and you could then use them in multi player.

I'm in for as extensive as possible, but even a more limited version where you could change only weapons would be welcome.

Lets split this into two discussions:

Ship unit design and ship graphic design. Ship unit design = changing the unit; ship graphic design = changing its appearance.