I have to jump in here.

I don´t have a whole lot of experience yet. My largest game so far is a mid sized (4 or 5 stars, some 7 or 8 grav wells per system) Normal game against 3 AIs.

I am about midgame (fleet consists of 5 capitals and about 50 frigates in total). I own my star system and have maxed fortification on all planets next to the star and medium defenses on all other grav wells.

Unfortunately, I simply can not go on the offensive against the AI, because the AI players constantly throw their fleets at me (typicaly consisting of 2 or 3 captals and some 20 to 30 frigates). Granted, my caps are a lot more experienced by now, while the ai has usually level 1 or 2 caps. Still, I need my ships (set up as two fleets) to hunt down the ai-fleets.
With the limited amount of planets, resources are only trickling in, so I have a hard time expanding my fleet.

I imagine, I have reached a standstill.

Realistic? Might be.
Fun? Not to me!

Something that just crossed my mind:

How about putting the tactical slots every planet has/gets in a pool, like the capital and ship pools, so you could decide to put, say 50 tactical points into those two key grav wells, 20 on your 3 mayor planets and some 5 to 10 on the small asteroid grav wells?
After all, I am building the defenses with the resources from my whole empire, I am providing support for my fleet with the resources from my whole empire. So why should the amount of defense structurs I can build in any given system be dependent on that single system?

Oh, and please, please, please make the PJI actually do something, pretty please!

(might be total bull, nothing unheard of from me   )

On a side note: This also may be due to my style of play:

Attack --> Conquer --> Secure --> Move on!
As it is now, this simply is not realy possible on anything but a small map.


Ok now, rip it to pieces   


Ralph Hoenig, Germany

Defences do work against AI, its the online play where problems arise. The AI usually just flys right into the defences, but online people just jump past your frontline planets. This problem could be solved quite easily by boosting phase jump inhibitors in some way. One idea i like is PJIs blocking jumps between planets that both have them. Say, planet A is your capital and it has a PJI, planet B is your frontline planet wich also has a PJI, and C is an enemy planet. The enemy can freely jump from C to B (while still being slightly slowed down) But they cant jump from B to A. They would first have to destroy the PJI on planet B, this would make defences more useful, and it would give you more time to move a fleet there, but it would still allow attackers to bypass the planet, but they would have to pay for it in frigates, rather than being able to jump past planets without any damages like it is now.

@ Kai Allard:

Here's what i do on my vs 9 AI game. I suppose you can force the enemy to flee. I tend to do an counter-attack right after that and cripple them even more (drive them even futher away). If done really quick you could bombard their planet too, that is if your planetary defenses can defend alone for a while, risky tactic but worth it. They wont be back for a while giving you some time to build a secondary fleet at your main planet. "Cat & Mouse" tactic the AI uses is it's greatest weakness.

edit: oh and before you charge in for the counter-attack save up so you can quickly start producing ships & replacing losses.

Good ideas Kai. I think it all boils down to this for me

Defenses need to be
A) More powerful than mobile forces for the money
Effective and
C) Limited in use to where you need them

There are a lot of ways to accomplish this. But if static defenses aren't more effective than money spent on mobile units, why use them? Thats why I suggested making them use fleet supply (they need to be manned) but quite powerful. Maybe we could also link it to your tactical point idea.

Stop defending and just attack. The key is to get over the idea of defending your border planets effectively. You just aren't going to be able to. Look at the Ai's border planets, they get chewed to bits all the time.

If you attack, then the other guy attacks, think about who can kill each others planets quicker? Eventually your fleets -will- have to meet, but it's the guy with the biggest and best infrastructure that eventually wins after all the devastation is over.

This is exactly what I am doing in a 1 vs. 1

Problems are:

1) As I said, I have secured my own star system. This means, the enemy fleet is not retreating to an enemy planet, but to the star of my system.

2) To get at one of the AIs, I have to move a strong fleet to another system. If I do this, I probably won´t be able to hold my own planets against the other AIs.

3) Saving up to rebuild, would be very hard. With only 9 grav wells per system (and thus only 9 planets/asteroids under my control), resources are not realy aplenty. If I want to stockpile enough to build, say 4 capitals and 30 or 40 frigates, I would have to sit around at least 30 minutes doing nothing (no research whatsoever too), which would enable the AI to outproduce (raise cap/shiplimits) and crush me.

4) Even so, it *might* work against the AI (if they keep sending their medium sized fleets at my max defended planets). But I have experienced in my smaller games AI fleets going into hundreds of ships. There is no way in hell, what will be left at home could cope with an attackfleet even half that size.
And against human opponents (not that I have played a multi yet) it would spell doom.


In the stalemate situation I described above, loosing a large part of my fleet would mean defeat, plain and simple. I´m pretty much in a situation as the german High Seas Fleet in WWI. Too valuable to risk loosing it   


As suggested somewhere above, making the cap/ship limit a hard number might not be the best way to do it.

How about this:

Without any further research/developement you get:
0.3 capships per colonized planet
0.1 capships per colonized asteroid
The sum is always rounded up
30 ship points per colonized planet
10 ship points per colonized asteroid
The Homeworld gets a 70 point bonus to ship points.
Reserach/developement increses the basic values much the same way as it does the fixed number now.

I haven´t thought a whole lot about the numbers, but wanted to keep the "1 cap, 100 ship points" at the start of a game, and imagined, if I control 10 planets, I should be able to field at least 3 capital warships even without research.

Ship points might be a bit much. On the other hand. This would mean a fully colonized planet (like earth) could support a whooping 6 Cobalt class frigates. That doesn´t sound as too much.

Perhaps modify the numbers for the type of the planet (terran get full value, desert and arctic 2/3 and volcanic half that.

Also, how about removing the fixed amount of upkeep/support for the fleet (spending 75% of my income on fleet upkeep, even my fleet just got crushed and there are only a handfull of frigates left is kind of stupid)?
How about giving each ship an upkeep cost? Thinking of this, you could do away with the ship points all together, as a small empire couldn´t afford a large fleet anyway.

Yes, I know this isn´t original and was in quite a few games allready. IMO, it worked quite well there, so why fix it if it aint broken?

That works great against one or two opponents. What do you against 7 hostile AI's with multiple ways of getting into your space? You can go on the offense and take out their worlds. They won't even fight back. Their fleets will actually run away while you are attacking them. The problem is their fleet will often run right for your planets and bombard yours the very second you leave them open. When you are fighting those 7 AI the will attack together whether they are allied or not. They will attack multiple places at once and will always do so with sufficient forces to guarantee a win for themselves. If your mobile forces are occupied attacking you can't buff your defenses sufficiently to hold them off. Yet to hold off 7 AI you can't negotiate with, you need to have all of your forces within 1-2 phase jumps of your border worlds at all times. This prevents you from putting forth a determined attack force.

I just played another game and it ended this way again. As long as I stay defensive I can build faster and smarter than the AI and hold out. But any attempt at attacking leads to instant reprisal raids on multiple fronts from all hostile AI's. I simply can't build enough to attack and defend against all of them. With diplomacy the way it is I can't even make friends with a few of them to buy myself time to attack the others. If you aren't playing a small map you need to turtle against the AI once the game goes beyond a certain point.

Against humans you can at least attack without them instantly attacking back. On the other hand a human will simply fly past your defenses and go hit a juicy target in the middle of your empire rather than stupidly fighting your periphery world's defenses.

Quite honestly, the defensive problem really only crops up in 8 player FFAs or something.

Seriously, in what game, at all, ever, is 2v1 really anything but an autoloss against to poor schmuck that gets ganged up against? The key here is to realize -you will lose those planets-

If you're getting offers from other factions to attack one faction, even if he is your ally, take it! Often you can betray your neighboring allies while his fleet is away and make friends with someone else across the galaxy, giving you an easy access to planets and a new ally. The TEC's diplomacy tech works -wonders- for this. Basically, take a look at the map. Choose the biggest,baddest empire and work with him, betray your ally if you need to get his favor. Chances are if you got a mission against someone, you'll double team him when the time comes for betrayal and you win big.

Oh, and finally, if you find yourself holed up in a star system late game, just use superweapons! That's what they're for. A novalith cannon at every planet can easily destroy an opposing empire if you target their most valuable planets. The other AI empire will eagerly gobble up the remains (Or you can, even).

@ Kai Allard

Ah thats nasty situation.... well at least you can go out in a blaze of fire . I'm not sure what i'd do in that situation either. Seems really bad, maybe something went "wrong" earlier.

Are you guys broke with your multiple star empires?

Even before I've taken an entire star on a random huge I've got three production centers, the original homeworld and two others on opposite ends, each having one capital shipyard and three frigate shipyards. Losing even the bulk of your defensive fleet should only be a minor setback. If you're expanding too fast and not maxing out your planets infrastructure, you're not going to survive because you can't afford to produce. If I can get to the point where I've locked down an entire solar system, it's all over for the ai.

This isn't to say the fleet system doesn't suck monkey nuts. I like the upkeep system, but it should be a modifier on trivial increases from the planets gained, a hybrid of the beta and final version would be much better. I do think you guys need to rethink your tactics though, I have problems winning fleet battles at truly ridiculous odds, but 3-1 is pretty easy on defense, and I can replace my carrier heavy solar systems defense fleet in just a few minutes as long as I keep the important ships alive, which is very easy.

I have.




I didn't.



"Don't you think we should let little Susie win the game for being so honest about her feelings?"

Here's a blue participation ribbon.




You're quickly wearing out your welcome - https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/?forumid=402&aid=176593

I think that demonstrates the problem right there. The problem isn't that defenses are too weak, it's that people are too worried about being attacked. If you think about the reality for a second, you'll realize that being attacked is a relatively minor thing. So is losing a planet.

I'll illustrate - I was in a similar situation to you. 5 player FFA, I jumped to an early lead, but then got ganged up on. Had 3 fronts to worry about, and not enough resources to guard them all and also attack. So finally I just gave up on trying to guard them all, and focused on attacking. I picked a single (weaker) empire, and went after them. As part of that, my other front(s) collapsed, and they drove me back pretty effectively (although I must point out that having lots of defenses did, in fact, slow down their advance - especially important was rebuilding defenses in different parts of the gravity well once some were lost). But I ignored the losses, and focused on taking down the enemy I targetted - which I did. One less enemy. I then picked another enemy, and went after him.

This worked very well. The fact was, I had the toughest fleet in the game, if I could use it. I just needed to figure out how to do so, and I did. The trick is to realize that you don't really need planets once you've got your fleet together. Sure, you want to hold on to your main planets, but the border defense planets are ultimately useless. As long as you can kill them faster than they can kill you, you'll still win (and you should be able to, thanks to your increased power). Each enemy you eliminate from the game is one less that can be building new ships to fight you, meaning the "alliance" attacking you is weakened.

So to sum up: Stop worrying about losing planets, start focusing on taking down enemies - no matter what the cost.

Bh

This simply don't work. You are caped by the 2000 fleet points. And your production center don't matter. All your fleets spend all his time pursuing enemy fleets. And game ends here. Your opponents can't take you down. But you no have further ways to advance in the game. If you use any of our fleets in ofensive maneuvor this open a flank that logically your enemy exploits it. And even spending all your resources building up defences it doesn't make any meaningful difference.

The only solution is play on small maps. Further small maps games bottleneck. And this is due to an accumulation of small circunstancies.

1- Fleet don't scale with map size. The fleet cap is 2000 for a map either 1 star system and 6 planets. And also 2000 for several star system and hundreds of planets. Seems a bit illogical to me.

2- In actual state defenses are not very useful. Her price/performance ratio is horrible and at best can slow a bit SMALL attacking fleets. So for a viable defence is needed a fleet to support in defence. And a this point we are back to point 1.

3- PJI and impossibilty to make a effective defence/interception. Plus the mouse and cata issue "or galactic chairs game". Even having a fleet and a solid defence with PJI, turrets, hangars and repair stations, enemy fleets can pass through very easyli and with minor loses.

4- Siege frigates issue, even with patch 1.02 >10 siege frigates are a serius problem that can only be solved with fleet assistance.

5- Poor diplomatic options that lead that you usually end fighting vs all opponents.

And the in medium to large maps in about 6 hours of gameplay the game bottleneck and it's all...

So, the Maginot Line STILL doesn't work? Surprising...

I just returned from a medium random map game with 4 players, and this time I went on the attack. I have managed to wipe out 1 player and cripple the next. Next thing you know 3 of the players attack me from all fronts at the same time.

I had full defenses around around every planet. Every single one was bristled with turrets, hangars and repair stations, with max research for planet health. I couldn't split all my fleets to respond at once, and one by one the planets were picked. When I tried chasing one, the other player attacked me from the rear, when I chased him, the second one attacked from the top. It was as if I'm playing against all of them at once. But that's beside the point.

The major point here was that the planets were all heavily defended, and the enemy fleets went right through the defenses without even losing a major chunk of ships at all, and then kept advancing and advancing until I had to move my fleets to rendezvous with theirs. Playing hide and seek with the AI, or better yet - a game of catch is a real pain in the rear. Defenses should cost alot more, but should also do alot more, in my opinion.

Ok, new tact, or less tact.

Eoder, and any future moron that just arbitrarily dismisses the post and replies to it anyway. Yes, the fleet system sucks and doesn't scale, no it's not impossible to win a multi-star game Some of us have done it, rather easily too. Learn.

Once you take an entire solar system, this is what you do. Put one third of your entire force in your star well. It should be very heavy in bombers, positioned in as optimal a point as possible, on loose or not a fleet at all to avoid failed pursuit. While they travel through your star well. they will get the shit chewed out of them by your bombers. When they leave the starwell, follow them. If you've got access to a slowing unit, use it, but strike craft are how you chase a fleet around and defend a closed star system.

With the rest of your force, create two fleets, a smaller one for defense, and a large one for conquest. Hit the next star well and just roll it over, sending the defense fleet in behind as soon as the last planet is up and running. If your fleets are worth a damn, you can't lose. Pick one ai and wipe it out, fortify, then move onto the next.

Even a random huge only has 5 stars and 10 players. You should be able to easily kill any defensive ai fleet with a well designed group including high level capital ships. The problem isn't that you can't chase the enemy down, it's that you're trying to chase them down. Butcher them with bombers until they aren't a threat, then ignore them. When you have multiple stars to defend, keep shrinking your defense force, one high level carrier capital ship in each star well goes a long way. When you get attacked, retreat them if they're attacked, and build your defensive fleet on the fly once you know where they are going. You can send a huge stream of units at them even if you've only got a couple hundred fleet points available. Just keep attacking them with the bulk of your fleet and you'll be just fine.

Yeah, I guess this strategy is not that hard to commit properly, it's just that- again, and again, and yet again, defenses should be a more viable strategy, in my opinion.

Oh, and by the way, thanks for calling anyone that disagrees a moron, really adds alot to your point.

if they Increase the cap so enemie will Increase the cap, no diffent.

I disagree.... while I'm not sure about how easy it is to fortify against real opponents, you can fairly easily use planetary defenses to repel most normal enemy's attacks... unless they're bringing their fleet in to legitimately take your planets. But it's easy to repel a simple raid with defenses alone.

Not in an RTS it ain't. There is probably no RTS in existence where you can turtle up and win. That's just the way it is. By turtling up you are missing the point of the game, which is to beat your opponent



no duh, If you are going to go out and try to dominate the game from the get go, all you are going to do is make the remaining players gang up on you and you lose. From looking at many of the posts here, there seems be a lot of people are expecting static defenses to be able to rebuff attacks from up to 7 different opponents and somehow not break the game. The greatest defense you can have is to have your potential enemies not consider you their greatest threat.

Ahh, there are RTS do existence where you can turtle up and win, I has been playing, Age of Empire, Age of Kings, Stronghold, Stronghold 2, Command and Coquers, Suprecommander, ect, You even't sometime can't rush in Hard A.I if large map. Mostly Hard and normal A.I., not easy A.I. Is why many people doing that, I wonder?

Your statement is as doubtable as your grammar

I have to agree on the point that, if defences costs more than a whole new third tier grade grand FLEET, and can't fend off a full first tier fleet, something is unbalanced, either costs and/or dmg done by defense installations...

Still with 1.02, if you want to win online you really need to focus on zergish fleets instead of enjoying the otherwise nicely done research trees and planetary development... a shame really.

Looking at Starcraft can give you a pretty great example of how to balance static defenses, and I think the balance of static def in Starcraft can absolutely apply here.

The best example of good static def in SC has got to be the interaction between Zerglings and Photon Cannons. Zerglings have 35 health and Photon Cannons deal 20 normal damage per shot. So, at the start of the game, a photon cannon can shoot twice to kill a single zergling. When the zergling upgrades its carapace to 1 or 2, the cannon can still kill it in 2 shots, dealing 38 and 36 damage, respectively. However, once the zergling's carapace hits max level, 3, the photon cannons will only deal 17 damage per shot, resulting in zerglings taking 34 damage, leaving them alive with 1 hit point.

1 hit point doesn't sound like much, but it means that the cannons now need to shoot 3 times to kill a zergling, meaning they effectively just lost 33% of their firepower. Huge difference.

The other key element to SC's static defense is that it never does splash damage. Compare a reaver (offensive unit with incredible splash damage) to a photon cannon, with no splash. If the opponent sends a few hydralisks, the cannons can deal with them just fine, as can the reaver. If on the other hand the opponent sends 75 hydralisks, the cannons just can't keep up. The key here is that since the p-cannon only hits one at a time, its value is weakened against such a dedicated force.

Now imagine a change to static defense for Sins. The defensive turrets shoot with great infrequency, but hit extremely hard. However, around tier 4 of each race there is an upgrade that grants +50% attack power against defenses. Here's how this changes the game: Players who attack early will collapse to the turrets. Since there are low numbers of ships at the early phase of the game, the static defenses can shoot, wait a second, shoot again, and quickly demolish a small force. Likewise, in the endgame, throwing around little wandering bomber squads loses effectiveness because they'll just get blasted into oblivion by the static def. However, if you launch a full scale assault, particularly after you have researched the special upgrade to increase the damage you do to static defense, the 2 or 3 turrets at a planet will fire, then get crushed by your large scale force before getting a chance to shoot again.

It means that players can set up some quick defense to let them research and tech up without worrying too much about incoming harassment, but likewise prevents the turrets from becoming overpowered in the late game.