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Map 'Gateway' illustrates perfectly why Phase Inhibiting is broken

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Map 'Gateway' illustrates perfectly why Phase Inhibiting is broken

from Sins Forums
If you have not tried the medium map "Gateway" yet, here is the general premise. There are two stars: 1 where all players start and another filled with many resources. There is 1 planet, Gateway, which has the only phase lane to the first system's star. The idea is to control that planet and thus control travel to the resource filled second star system (this is stated directly in the map's description).

Knowing this, I quickly built up a large fleet and took control of Gateway. 4 capital ships, 50+ frigates and assorted cruisers. Phase Jump Inhibitors in place, defense platforms, hangar bays, the whole works!!

The result... it's FUBAR. That's F@#^ED UP BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION in case you don't know the acronym. A whole fleet of enemy ships jumps in to Gateway and my fleet engages. 60 seconds later they've jumped to the star. Their total losses? 1 capital ship (that I ion cannoned to death... I can can't even do that anymore with the 1.02 nerf of ion canon) and a few frigates.

My entire MASSIVE fleet could not stop a small inferior enemy fleet from getting through Gateway. They got to the star and jumped systems.

WHAT IS THE FREAKIN' POINT OF THIS MAP???? Now I either split my fleet trying to chase them down weakening the (laughable) "defense" of Gateway or let them go and colonize the other system (and eventually come back to wipe me out). Actually it wouldn't matter since any other fleet can phase in and out of that system at will without any significant loss at all.

Put simply, phase lane control is broken. Why even include this kind of map when there is ABSOLUTELY NO way to truly control a system and block an enemy advance (or retreat).

Please fix phasing control.
37,158 views 43 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top
Dont forget about all the ships that dont even have antimatter. They will need to be given it.

While that may seem good but for a advent player that will make dispele frigs that much deadlier. Drain Antimatter, and transfer antimatter. Basicly if you jump into there area you can be very very screwed if they have an overwhelming force.

So instead of the antimatter Idea. Maybe make a crusier that stops fleets from running and also, let it be an upgrade for the jump inibiter. Make it tier 8 Military.

As a side note. I would like to be able to build maybe a station type thing in those "un colonable places. Or at least in the gas giant/space junk/riod belt, but leave teh Wormholes/and gas clouds the why they are. Make it an upgrade for the colony ship.

Basicly the station gives you tactical slots. *and for TEC the normal bonus for logistic slots.
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Had not thought about that. Perhaps a "Jump Stop" function that kills the jumping sequence. requires a cool down time (to avoid abuse) and is autocast. I am not sure how that might be coded... perhaps that would be a better way for the jump inhibitor to operate, so that antimatter would no longer be an issue?

OR

The PJI is an absolute block but it requires antimatter to work and is depleted while operating, say 2 points per sec with no ability to regenerate while in use. (you could have a function to turn of the PJI) that would make it really nasty as you could place 2 or 3 in a system and keep switching them on and off. Would require some micro management to fully use or have a tie in button (like a form fleet button) where they would only cast one at a time.

Just another set of random thoughts here..
Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top
I play Gateway and don't have this problem. Of course I was also not a dumbass and quickly expanded to the three asteroid colonies surrounding Gateway so that I wasn't constantly fighting them a jump away from my Xi colonies.

It sounds pretty stupid, but you also sound pretty histrionic. So how do I know you're not exaggerating?
Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top
The antimatter thing is kind of stupid.

And a research upgrade for the current PJI that only adds a little bit of time, or making an advanced PJI is also stupid, because it would more or less make the current PJI obsolete and remove the purpose of having them in the first place.

You could research an upgrade for PJI that made a certain % of ships (say 10 per level or so. 2 levels) who try to jump out of a system with a PJI have a catastrophic phase engine failure that takes a long time to repair, meaning that if you jump a fleet out in a retreat you are more or less guaranteed to lose 20% (at max upgrade) of that fleet unless you destroy the PJI first. Capital ships will not be immune to the chance.

So its a risk to run away from a PJI, but if you are 100% screwed if you stay, you will still be able to get away with out totally destroying your fleet. But the defenders will more or less automatically get kills.

And bypassing a system with this PJI is still a bad idea, because you could lose important ships in the process.

Scout ships can be immune to this.
Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
I like the % chance of catastrophic failure idea, withdrawal is an important part of fighting, however in this game its too easy (compared to many games where it is too hard) The durability of ships means that if you decide to withdraw, you are likely to take no casulties at all, meaning all your opponents manoevering to place you in a bad position is pointless.
Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top
I've gotta agree with you here, theres nothing more irritating than making an awesomely defended chokepoint with all your soft industrial planets behind it only for an enemy fleet to warp through and wipe out all my undefended trade stations and refineries.

Maybe if you kept them the same as they are but made it so they couldn't jump to allied systems enemy fleets would still be able to retreat if they're certain to be killed but wouldn't be able to skip past defensive systems.

The catastrophic faliure thig sounds cool too, but make it more... catastrophic. Maybe jump engine faliure, shield faliure, and sub-light drive faliure. That way there's even more of an incentive not to jump out until the inhibiter is destroyed.
Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top

I play Gateway and don't have this problem. Of course I was also not a dumbass and quickly expanded to the three asteroid colonies surrounding Gateway so that I wasn't constantly fighting them a jump away from my Xi colonies.

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I'm afraid I don't understand the point of your post. So are you saying because you "don't have this problem" then the rest of us complaining are "histrionic"?


Being a bit "egocentric" aren't we? I mean really. You caught us. All of the replies to this thread must be from "dumbasses" who don't know what they're talking about. After all, you are the center of the universe right? If you say there's no problem then there mustn't be one.

How's that cave wall looking? (I'm assuming from your colorful use of adjectives that you're experienced enough to understand this reference)

/sarcasm
Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
I like the cruiser idea...

A blockade cruiser with the ability to deploy along the edges of a gravity well that prevents jumping within it's range. This range would be about half that of a guass cannon (maybe even a third), meaning you would need quite a bit to seal off a whole well (quite an investment), but you could block off access to your inner systems for a price. The blockade cruiser would be durable with igh hull and shield points, but without heavy weaponry and must deplay to effect phase jumping.

Keep the PJI as it is as a complement to these cruisers.

Leave the antimatter as it is.
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top

I like the cruiser idea...

A blockade cruiser with the ability to deploy along the edges of a gravity well that prevents jumping within it's range. This range would be about half that of a guass cannon (maybe even a third), meaning you would need quite a bit to seal off a whole well (quite an investment), but you could block off access to your inner systems for a price. The blockade cruiser would be durable with igh hull and shield points, but without heavy weaponry and must deplay to effect phase jumping.

Keep the PJI as it is as a complement to these cruisers.

Leave the antimatter as it is.
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For sheer coolness points, the idea of a wall of blockade cruisers definitely wins. That would make for some epic scenes.

Needing to invest fleet supply to maintain it would also help negate the defender advantage.

A third of the radius of a gauss turret would be too harsh, though - can you jump over the rim of a gravity well, on the Z-axis? If so, then you'd be reducing the covered area to 1/9th, and it would take about a hundred blockade ships and a whole lot of patience to seal off a route.
Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top
A 3 stage upgrade for slowing enemy phase jumps down between your planet, and a 3 stage high level research for holding enemies and warning you about enemies trying to phase jump through your planets (through the "Threat Report"), as I suggested, is more ideal (and also makes the PJI "super" to use in the later stage of a game, be it a medium or large map).

Let's not make this into another Turtle Vs Superweapon type of game (like the first attempt to address "massive" RTS, Supreme Commander vanilla), but develop more on the factors which are fun, naming galactic fleet coordination & research as two of them. Tu :HOT:
Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top
Give one of the support caps some kind of 'blockade' ability. That or make some 'blockade cruisers' for each race. They exist to sit there, near a phase lane, and nothing within their immediate area can jump while they still live when they are in 'deployed' mode. While deployed they can not move. They are durable but no more durable than a durable cruiser, not like a cap or a structure.

They will not be as overpowered as a jump drive inhibitor that covers the whole system and always works, but they will let a purpose-built fleet stop something. Just remove jump drive inhibitors from the game. And put the research for these cruisers where they used to be. A few extra seconds does not do a whole lot of good. That or make jump drive inhibitors make enemy ships trying to use the phase lanes connected to that planet go slower through phase space than normal.

Make their radius small enough that you need a few of them to cover the entire exit points of a phase lane. That and the fact that redundancy is good if you want it to work for any measure of time means that in order to stop movement you will have to devote a decent bit of fleet capacity to this purpose.
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BLOCKADE ABILITY? for TEC ships? BLOCKADE CRUISERS? man i gotta find this.

Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top
I really hope someone actually does something about this in the next patch... It seems to be the biggest problem by far.
Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top

I'm afraid I don't understand the point of your post. So are you saying because you "don't have this problem" then the rest of us complaining are "histrionic"?
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The result... it's FUBAR. That's F@#^ED UP BEYOND ALL RECOGNITION in case you don't know the acronym. A whole fleet of enemy ships jumps in to Gateway and my fleet engages. 60 seconds later they've jumped to the star. Their total losses? 1 capital ship (that I ion cannoned to death... I can can't even do that anymore with the 1.02 nerf of ion canon) and a few frigates.

My entire MASSIVE fleet could not stop a small inferior enemy fleet from getting through Gateway. They got to the star and jumped systems.

WHAT IS THE FREAKIN' POINT OF THIS MAP???? Now I either split my fleet trying to chase them down weakening the (laughable) "defense" of Gateway or let them go and colonize the other system (and eventually come back to wipe me out). Actually it wouldn't matter since any other fleet can phase in and out of that system at will without any significant loss at all.
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You're right, I'm sorry, my label was entirely inappropriate given how he expressed his frustration. I'll let you guys go back to thinking up simple solutions to complex problems now.
Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
Some fashion to prevent "ping-ponging" enemy fleets would be nice. The way they'll trade one of their nicely propped up colonies to destroy the one you just took from them is silly. They're trading away quality, for...nothing.

Why not give phase engines a 1 minute cooldown when not in your own controlled territory. Adds a sense of continually expanding outposts and such.

Not a perfect solution, but meh...beats chasing two enemy capital ships for fifteen minutes of nothing getting accomplished.
Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
gotta go with the % chance to have a phase engine burn out on the other side of the phase lane, makes pji's actually have an effect, and if you really wanted to wheedle their fleet down, you could follow them with your fleet to finish off the lamed ships. I'd also like to see another level of hangar that deployed a few small frigates to assist in defense. They'd have a little more firepower than bombers, and be alot more durable. A defended planet should be a tough nut to crack even on its own, not your entire fleet tough nut to crack, but tough.

I also like the cooldown idea
Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
To the people who want to sup up the PJI, you should realize that your complaint is just an attempt to make the game easier for yourself by taking out some strategy. Phase jumping is as it is so that you can just beef up one system and use it to hold your whole empire. There are tactics and strategy involved! If you had it the way some of you are talking, it would just be a build up followed by a slog punching back and forth to take out the turtled planet. Perhaps as a compromise though, the pji could be targeted at one phase lane to say quadruple the jump drive power up time.
Just a thought.
And to the devs please dont chance jumping like people above are asking for, it would ruin the game!
Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top
gotta go with the % chance to have a phase engine burn out on the other side of the phase lane, makes pji's actually have an effect, and if you really wanted to wheedle their fleet down, you could follow them with your fleet to finish off the lamed ships. I'd also like to see another level of hangar that deployed a few small frigates to assist in defense. They'd have a little more firepower than bombers, and be alot more durable. A defended planet should be a tough nut to crack even on its own, not your entire fleet tough nut to crack, but tough.

I also like the cooldown idea
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I think upragrading the defense hangers is a GREAT idea! It doen't even need to be frigates, it could be somehitng simliar to the Capital Class Carrier that updrages squadrons hull and attack at the same time, and there hsould be an upgrade within the hanger to increase capacity to at least three squadrons. That would be wicked!
Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top
Your probably right about 1/3 being too small.. maybe 1/2 or so... the range of a guass would require too few ships to blockade completely.