Gameplay mechanic Issue

Too bad, I wanted to like this game

I'm a die-hard strategy game junky, and have been playing these games for decades, even before PCs had them (in the olden days you had to play them on mainframes). I have been tracking this particular game for about a year before it came out, and had extremely high hopes.

My problem with the game is the horrible gameplay mechanic, which I belive is a crappy synergy of a few bad balance decisions these guys made. It breaks the game, and makes it unplayable from any sort of enjoyability or fun standbpoint.

1) All you have to do to either win the game, or make it so unfun for your human opponents that they don't want to play anymore, is go straight for the siege frigate technology, then spam some planetary siege frigates and start going from planet to planet taking out the populations on those planets. This strategy can't really be stopped - EVEN WITH the newest patch which claimed to mitigate it to a certain degree. I just finished a game against the computer (set only on average difficulty). I purposefully went with the advent FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE of trying to stop this bullcrap strategy that I knew the computer would employ. My strategy was to use fighters against these siege frigates, so the first thing I did was bring in the carrier cap ship, and equip it with fighters, and also extra fighters for each group. Then, I researched the hanger tech as quickly as possible, and upgraded it so that each hanger would have additional fighters. After I took a few planets, I put down 3 hangers on two of my outlying systems where I knew attacking forces would have to come through. I filled the upgraded hangers with fighters, and also built a fleet to support my cap ship.

Bottom line, this strat failed at all to stop the "siege frigate" strategy. At all. In one instance, all the computer needed was 7 of these siege frigates to take out my planet's population (in the other instance, he sent 19, LOL). Even in the case of just 7 siege frigates, against 3 fully upgraded hangers stocked with fighters, AND ALSO the civilian bomb shelters I had built on the planet, he successfully removed the entire population, and then moved on. Someone might say "well you should have built more hangers." Well sure, my intention was to eventually max out hangers at as many planets as I could, however don't I also have a fleet to build? Don't I have other things to spend money on besides hangers? Also, do you think 6 or 7 hangers would have stopped the 19 ships the guy sent in the next attack?

Anyone can employ this bullcrap strategy (not just the computer). Are there defenses? Perhaps. But the defenses are so extreme as to make the game a crappy experience. For instance, you could build your own force of siege frigates and play "siege frigate tag" with your opponent, and forever be prepared to blow up his worlds too, complete with colony ships which then place your own colonies down as his are eliminated. You can then play "planetary musical chairs" with your opponent - keep blowing up each other's planets and switching colonies back and forth until one guy gets sick of it and quits.

You could try to build ships and defenses which counter his siege frigates, and hunt down all of his siege frigates, but it won't work (I tried - see above). He can take your planets out before you can take his ships out, and then he can run. Oh, you can chase him (and I did, through star system after star system after star system), but you won't catch him (or, if you did, you'd spend so much time chasing him around that you'd still lose because you'd be neglecting all the other aspects of the game).

2) The first problem might not be so bad if it weren't for this problem: You can't control or lock down phase lanes strategically, which is just plain weird considering that this is a strategy game, and it just seems obvious that a space strategy game should allow the strategic use of star systems and phase lanes (otherwise the only strategy you are employing is what sorts of ships to build and what sorts of techs to research).

At any rate, this severe game weakness combined with the first one just makes for an unplayable game condition from the way I look at it. Systems are undefendable, phase lanes and star systems are uncontrollable from a strategic standpoint, and the game is an endless game of "phase lane tag" at the very best.

What's weird is, the underlying game itself seems to be a great game. The engine handles a lot of micromanagement for you, the graphics are good, the concept of the game is great, on and on. Yet they made these totally BIZARRE choices on gameplay mechanics and balance, and there really is no excuse for it at all. Why make it so siege frigates can take down a planet so easily which even has defenses and a fleet in place? Why make it so the PJI sucks? The only guess I have is that the developers (who seem very capable and talented) strongly catered to the feedback of their beta tester audience, which I'm guessing represented a poor sample for what most strategy gamers want as far as gameplay mechanics in a game like this. Either that, or they just had bizzare ideas on their own for what constituted a good gameplay mechanic.

At any rate, this pretty much ends my participation in this game, and I won't be playing it anymore, or recommending it to anyone else, which is too bad, because like I said the game had serious potential, and the developers seem extremely competent in the work they did on the game from a technical standpoint. It's quite strange - the game has so much promise and potential. It was the "game that could have been"... but I suppose in the end, it sadly wasn't.
71,041 views 105 replies
Reply #1 Top
Doesn't seem like you're the only one complaining about this.
Reply #2 Top
You can be pretty sure that they will rebalance the siege frigate issue in the next patch, there are many people complaining about it.

I'm fully with you with 2), it should be possible to lock down phase lanes, that would get rid of the boring phase lane chasing.
Reply #3 Top
Tbh I like that the AI is 'smart' enough to take advantage of this but I also agree, it's really silly that they can fly 20 siege units past maxed out defenses and just nuke the planet. I've suggested already that defensive structures could have something like a point defense quality where they are effectively 'shooting down' the missiles, minimizing those that dmg the surface (i.e. they reduce siege dmg alot) OR a mechanic where an idle siege ship takes additional dmg since its basically a sitting duck if its just bombing a planet. Doesn't seem like too complex of elements to consider anyway. Just make it so that defensive structures whose active radius encompasses the planet offers a point defense reduction of siege dmg or make it so that siege units that are bombing are considered idle and will take augmented dmg. That way, a siege fleet at least needs to be escorted properly to defended planets or will find itself being much less effective by leaving the defenses intact.

I say all this because I don't think its necessary to eliminate the strategy - I like that you can take advantage of poor defenses and low emergency upgrades to just zoom an area from another player. But again I have to agree, being able to zoom a 6000 hp planet while ignoring full defenses is really a bit stupid.

To be fair though, I haven't really be crushed by the siege spam tactics as bad as some people have described. I've fought them off fairly well with my own fleets. I don't necessarily think its as borked as people make it out to be but I certainly think it could be much better and in the end offer greater strategic options.
Reply #4 Top
You can be pretty sure that they will rebalance the siege frigate issue in the next patch, there are many people complaining about it.
End of quote


Funny isn't? People were originally stating "it's not a big issue, or you're just a newbie!!!" And now I can hardly go anywhere on this forum without reading a complaint in regards to Siege Frig spams. Nice!

Reply #5 Top
I've never had a problem with (especially the AIs) siege frigate spam. So, yeah.
Reply #6 Top
The problem with phase lane lock down or even an extensive delay is it makes it very difficult to kill the super weapons. Personally I'd rather see the super weapons nerfed or even removed if it allows for the elimination of the need for phase lane hop scotch to kill an enemy fleet that runs the literal instant the tides turn against it.
Reply #7 Top
"Why make it so the PJI sucks? The only guess I have is that the developers (who seem very capable and talented) strongly catered to the feedback of their beta tester audience, which I'm guessing represented a poor sample for what most strategy gamers want as far as gameplay mechanics in a game like this."

I wasn't in beta, but from what I gather the PJI there were more useful. No one seems to really know why they were changed.

There are a ton of good ideas floating around on ways to make it better though, so whether by official change or do-it-yourself (as soon as they give us the tools) I wouldn't give up on the game yet for just those two issues if I were you.
Reply #8 Top

I've never had a problem with (especially the AIs) siege frigate spam. So, yeah.
End of quote


Perhaps you can provide a strategy for the man's problem.
Reply #9 Top
Static defences usually wont stop a large siege spam, but those ships you had should. 17 seige frigs are not in anyway cheap. Did you scout and see they were coming? I would love to see the replay if you wouldn't mind posting it.
Reply #10 Top
You can deal with the siege frigate spam fairly easily. In fact there is a thread stickied on how to do precisely that.

Problem number two is only a problem when confronting humans, and for that I have to thank God these companies believe in supporting their game.

Problem number three is that I don't believe you when you say you are a "die hard strategy junky," because any truly good strategy game always has a few balance issues to sort out. If you knew much about complex strategy games (as compared to the shallower RTS's) you would understand that and be willing to give the developers a little time to iron out the problems... the mark of a truly great strategy game is a developer who is willing to put a lot of time and effort into it even after the release.
Reply #11 Top
I see siege frigate spam all the time from the AI. I don't think siege frigates need to be nerfed, as I have no trouble countering a siege frigate rush, but the AI needs to employ better strategies, as spamming siege frigates is a pointless waste of resources.
Reply #12 Top
Weird post...

Weird in a sense of really crap title and then rather cool points. Let me add my 2 cents to this...

This game IMHO is one of the best if not THE best strategy game i have ever played in my life , and yes, i also play since Dune and Laser Squad...

Now, to couple of points you made...

1. I totally agree, siege frigate tech is extremely LAME tactic but since i am not playing this game for very long i wont say PATCH IT straight away - however - i wouldn't be surprised at all if this isnt tweaked a bit by 1.03

2. I would also love to see this feature :)


So in short - yes i agree with your points - but i think they are minor issues at the moment and can be easily patched...

I would say keep on playing and suggesting a fix to the devs since i am sure you wont find better strategy game out there :)




Reply #13 Top
Magicide, is that really the reason for the change? Kind of cruddy if that is the only reason why.

In which case I would go so far as to suggest that the superweapons be made into ships and only allowed to shoot one or two wells ahead. They already look like ships, and would effectively be the huge catapults you wheel up to just outside the enemy's range to fire with, making them into uber siege units.
Reply #14 Top
Perhaps you can provide a strategy for the man's problem.
End of quote
He's willing to bash the entire game because he's unwilling to figure out how to deal with the issue despite there being more than enough info for it (in a sticky no less). Emergency Shelters and some defenders, or hangers+turrets if you don't want to leave ships there will handle most. I've seen 20 siege frigates stopped from killing a world by 3 cruisers, 5 frigates, and a hanger. They retreated with 7 frigates left, the world still at 3400 health
Reply #15 Top
I keep hearing something else. That siege frigs can decimate a fully upgraded planet in less than a minute, most defenses are too slow to do an major damage in that amount of time, and enemy frequently flees after the attack.
Reply #16 Top
He actually has valid points, guys, the title though may use a better wording.

This is not a "crappy" game, but a game that currently doesn't fulfill all of its amazing potential, in my opinion.
Reply #17 Top

We don't agree with the siege problem since v1.02 but we'll continue to monitor the stats and gameplay behaviors. The PJI point has some valid arguements. PJI's may need some boosting or at least a second level upgrade. Full lockdown proved disastarous in the beta so we are exploring a few new ideas as well as time increases.

For help with the siege problem, check out this link: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/?forumid=402&aid=175318#1445640

Finally, for those of you who were in the beta, please explain that we take your suggestions and reports of problems seriously and we've been proving it since last March. Sins will continue to evolve as we try to find the perfect balance, gameplay mechanics and fun for the game and we do that interactively with everyone here in the forums. There is no need to exaggerate, issue threats, or try to insult us. We aren't like some other companies where you get ignored or where causing a stink is the best way to get attention. Polite, detailed descriptions with well thought out arguements are much more persuasive.

Reply #18 Top
Your dedication is what reassures me.
Reply #19 Top
Well, I'm a pretty long-term strategy gamer (also dating back to before computer gaming), and so far, I've little or no trouble with siege frigates - defending against them really isn't that hard, especially after the 1.02 changes.

As far as controlling phase lanes and 'blocking' systems goes, I like that Sins makes these things hard or even impossible. Far too many space strategy games reduce the vast reaches of space to something that's mechanically no different to playing a ground-based game. The fact that 'control' of territory and choke points in Sins isn't absolute is one of the unique aspects of the game, and requires new and different strategies and tactics.
Reply #20 Top
Blair, that was an excellent post. Thank you very very much for your utter dedication.

Actually, I think Stardock and Ironclad both should use this extremely bold letters in GalCiv and Sins homepages:

"We take your qualms and grievances with the game seriously and constantly aim to improve the game using your feedback. We aren't like other companies where you get ignored or where complaining as loud as you can is the best way to get attention. Polite, detailed descriptions of the issue you are experiencing, with well thought arguements, will be much more persuasive and productive. Thank you."
Reply #21 Top
I have yet to see the AI do this(seige spam), but I have a friend who is saying the same thing. The AI just spams them with seige frigates and even a highly defended planet with emergency upgrades just takes too much damage to really be fair.

In all fairness, a well defended planet should turn a group of seige frigates into dust pretty fast. It should -require- a fleet of ships to start doing enough damage to a planet to actually be an effective tactic, not just some seige frigates. Seige frigates, in a manner of speaking, appear to give you a shortcut to what I would consider the 'end game' of a planet attack. Seiging should feel just like it sounds, seiging. You mop up the defenders and -then- you start seiging.

There are a lot of good options for fixing this problem. One idea I like is making seige ships go into a 'seige mode' which takes a period of time, where they are very vulnerable to attack until they convert. And then they are totally motionless until they convert back into a transportation mode. This should give any defenses ample time to wipe them out before they can start doing damage, and shouldn't have any impact at all on planetary seiging if it's done the way it was intended. Ten seconds of converting to seige mode doesn't change much if you've already wiped out the defenses.

Introducing point defense in -any- form would also help. As it stands, as soon as you launch a missile, there's nothing that's gonna stop it. Which is too bad, because it adds a whole layer to combat, and would solve a few problems on the way.

(How cool would it be to see lasers appearing on the planet's surface and tracking missiles until they explode in atmosphere?)

Anyway, just some thoughts. Me and my friends are enjoying the game a fair bit. Some things to get worked out, but there always is. Great work guys. =)
Reply #22 Top

The problem with phase lane lock down or even an extensive delay is it makes it very difficult to kill the super weapons. Personally I'd rather see the super weapons nerfed or even removed if it allows for the elimination of the need for phase lane hop scotch to kill an enemy fleet that runs the literal instant the tides turn against it.
End of quote


There is no question that this strategy game could be quite good without a superweapon, yet it cannot be good with the current game dynamic. In short - yes, it would make far more sense to bring back the PJI the way it was in beta 4, and either nerf or eliminate the superweapon. However, this won't happen. One of the developers posted on another thread and said they won't be bringing back the PJI the way it used to be, and he seemed pretty adamant about it.


There are a ton of good ideas floating around on ways to make it better though, so whether by official change or do-it-yourself (as soon as they give us the tools) I wouldn't give up on the game yet for just those two issues if I were you.
End of quote


I believe that any mods will make it difficult or impossible to play with others online, and since the developers stated they will not be bringing back the old PJI, I have probably played my last game of SoSE.


Did you scout and see they were coming? I would love to see the replay if you wouldn't mind posting it.
End of quote


I had scouts scouting the map from the very first build order I made on my frigate factory. However, scouting was irrelevant because I already ANTICIPATED the computer was gonna use this strategy against me, and as I already said I banked on it and counted on it from the get-go. It was the entire basis of my race selection, opening cap ship selection, research into hangers, my selection of fighters instead of bombers, etc.


Problem number two is only a problem when confronting humans, and for that I have to thank God these companies believe in supporting their game.... If you knew much about complex strategy games (as compared to the shallower RTS's) you would understand that and be willing to give the developers a little time to iron out the problems... the mark of a truly great strategy game is a developer who is willing to put a lot of time and effort into it even after the release.
End of quote


But the developers already stated they wouldn't be correcting the PJI problem, so there is no reason to give them time to do something they don't plan to do:

"We won't be switching back to the beta phase jump inhibitors (how many times have I typed that? )." -Yarlen

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/?forumid=402&aid=176206#1453118


He's willing to bash the entire game because he's unwilling to figure out how to deal with the issue despite there being more than enough info for it (in a sticky no less). Emergency Shelters and some defenders, or hangers+turrets if you don't want to leave ships there will handle most.
End of quote


Why are you so threatened by my so-called "bashing the game?" Someone can't have a critique or an opinion of the game that isn't shared by you? All the strategy gamers I know agree with every point I've made, and all the strategy gamers I know do not enjoy the current gameplay mechanic. If you are in the minority that does - my hat is off to you, and God bless you.

I read the sticky you refer to. Apparently you didn't read my post. I built emergency shelters, had defenders, turrets and hangers, etc. Besides, I already agreed this strat could be dealth with (I said that too, and even outlined a way it could be dealth with). I simply said that dealing with it creates a crappy gameplay mechanic. And bottom line, this isn't the main problem in and of itself, it's a problem which SYNERGIZES with another problem to create a bigger condition (I said that too). The bigger problem is actually the sucky PJIs. Good PJIs would at least stop the siege frigates from going deeper into your empire after taking out that intial world, or might hold them in place until the cavalry arrives, but either way the siege frigates are just silly. They should be a unit that is used after a planet's defenses and fleets are taken down. They shouldn't be able to waltz into a system on their own and take it down - that's just nuts. They should be made fragile enough for basic defenses and basic light frigates to be able to mop up the floor with them. That means they'd have to be accompanied by a fleet, and that fleet would have to destroy the fleet protecting the planet plus its defenses before the siege frigates could do their dirty work. The mechanic I just outlined is just plain common sense. The mechanic that exists now, and the mechanic you seem to advocate, is just nuts.
Reply #23 Top
Craig said they are most likely going to make some adjustments to the PIJ' by giving them a boost, or perhaps increasing the time in which ships are delayed. I'd prefer time increases, as opposed to completely stopping fleets.
Reply #24 Top
Why are you so threatened by my so-called "bashing the game?" Someone can't have a critique or an opinion of the game that isn't shared by you?
End of quote
Are you unable to read your own thread title? How about "you're a crappy player" as my response instead, that wouldn't be very nice, would it? No, it wouldn't.

I agree that PJIs need some work, and just because they aren't being reverted to their overpowered beta state doesn't mean they wont get changed. Even without superweapons the beta PJIs just weren't very fun. I was only commenting on the Siege Frigates (of which I have not seen any real problem even when the AI sends upwards of 20 at lightly defended worlds).
Reply #25 Top
Agent of Kharma, relax, dude, you've got the developers' notice, no need to get all defensive here and turn the thread into a flame war.

You were wrong to bash that way the game in first place, and should show a bit more patience and restraint. Please don't make it worse. And I'm on your side, or at least try to.

Anyway, I do think this post has run its course, but that's just my opinion.