Sins Diplomacy

from Sins Forums
Am I the only one who doesn't really like what they did with the diplomacy in this game? I feel like it's very limited compared to what they did with Galactic Civs. I know they're two different games but this whole "mission" system is a step back. It makes sense on paper but the requests are usually way too difficult, the loss of allegiance too severe and they don't make sense. Like "blow up 3 tactical structures that belong to the guy on the opposite side of the solar system across hostile territory". Or, we'll get pissed and rape and pillage you're people. Having 8 different ai's asking you to attack the other 7 is just a pain. Where are the options to surrender/demand planets, techs or resources. Or being able to have you're enemies surrender and be a vassal, instead of being force to completely exterminate them. So far I really like Sins and this is really my only gripe with it. It's not huge but seeing how their last game had such a great diplomacy system it sucks that they didn't build from that.
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Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
You forget that Sins ain't a pure 4X and it ain't a pure RTS either.

What you ask is simply too difficult (if not impossible) to implement in an RTS as Sins, can you imagine having 8 A.I.s (as you mentioned) all wanting a different planet from you?
Those diplomacy options that you describe are simply too time consuming for an RTS.

The missions system is the only way they could bring some aspects of 4X diplomacy within the limited time confines of an RTS. Initially they will be missions like "give me some crystal" while later there will be more complex and difficult missions with a greater reward.

Don't forget that the other factions can't really threaten you, they are already your enemies (so what they will kill you differently?) so it is up to you to decide which one you will become friends with while you destroy the other factions.

The only problem i have with this diplomacy model is that you can't win an Allied victory in an unlocked teams game.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

The only problem i have with this diplomacy model is that you can't win an Allied victory in an unlocked teams game.
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Yes, you can. I did so in my last game. We were only 3 people left, and I had a peace treaty with one of them. After we defeated the other one it was game over. I was a bit upset, as I was planning to backstab him.

Regarding diplomacy in this game, I agree it is a bit lacking. I started ignoring the missions altogether after a while. Relations fluctuate far too much for my liking. I would like to see more ways to build friendship than what we have. As it stands, the diplomacy system seems to be way more over on the RTS side than the 4X side. Personally I would like to see it the other way around. I do not at all agree with you that "The missions system is the only way they could bring some aspects of 4X diplomacy within the limited time confines of an RTS." There are plenty of things that could be implemented without interfering with the RTS part.
Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top
The diplomacy is quite unlike any other game I've played, but it does work. If you look at it like a game of the ancient classic "Master of Magic" there are some similarities. The main difference is that you don't get a free choice of which AI you will court with gifts of resources. The AI will make their requests/demands and if you want an alliance you can get one if you fill the early resource demands promptly.

If you aren't fast enough to start handing over resources you miss the boat and the attack missions come out. Those could perhaps use some more tuning, but they are not disastrous, especially for a faction with access to diplomacy bonuses in their research tree. If you miss the easy resource missions though you won't be able to raise the AI disposition far enough fast enough to get a trade pact from your neighbours. If you score the trade pact and have enough trade stations in place you usually get a ceasefire if not a full alliance, because the AI will value the trade income.

The wartime part of an alliance works reasonably well, with the AI ally providing good information on their own defensive needs. I haven't really tried to get the hang of using pings to direct the AI to make attacks on my behalf, but they often turn up to help in battles anyway and that's good.

The part that works less well is the AI choice of targets. I'm not likely to divert my forces in a tight fight to destroying an arbitrary number of civilian facilities... but often the timelimit for the mission expires during the closing stages of the battle for the system - so I'd have had to switch to hitting the AI's goals far too early and probably I'd lose the battle if I cooperated.

One possibility would be to introduce partial credit - so if the AI wants me to destroy six things and I get one, I get less credit. I think it could be weighted so that the first and the last targets give a bigger share of the spread from -X to +2X reputation and that might make the AI response quite interesting.

Also, what about making the AI goals a little more specific? If the AI is under culture threat perhaps it could ask for not just "6 civil structures" but "these 3 culture-spreaders". Combined with the partial-credit system that might go a long way to letting the AI use the player to achieve the AI's real strategic goals instead of doing fairly random make-work.

Still, the system is quite playable even now. It does seem a bit raw, but there's untapped potential too I think.

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top



Still, the system is quite playable even now. It does seem a bit raw, but there's untapped potential too I think.


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That's my point, it's not terrible but it should be improved and there's definitely untapped potential. I don't believe that the game's style restricts it to the current options. Maybe what I suggested is a bit much but there's certainly more that can be done than the simple mission they have. I also dislike the fact that the player can't be the one making demands. It feels like you're the universe's bitch.