HermitInTheSky

Why are all the races the same?

Why are all the races the same?

TEC=Advent=Vasari with different looks and names...

I've been thinking... Why the hell do the three races look pretty much alike... In Logistic view, I mean... They have the same buildings only renamed and re-modeled... They have pretty much the same types of ships, only with different ways of delivering their firepower... The only differences are in the Millitery Tech tree and some of the Economic techs... Ok, there are capital ships, but they too are roughtly the same... First one is the ordinary battlecruiser, second- carrier, third- colonizer, forth- support and fifth- the all-mighty dreadnaught... They should have made some diffeence in gameplay/strategies... I mean, when you get one working strategy for one of the races, it will work for the other two... Don't get me wrong, it's a good game... One of the best I've ever seen, and I've seen my share of games... But a little more variety will be welcome...
111,943 views 101 replies
Reply #26 Top
I can name many RTS's with different units and structures for the teams: Warcraft, Command & Conquer, Rise of Nations: Rise of Legends, Age of Mythology, Age of Empires 3, Empire Earth 3, Starcraft, Company of Heroes... the list goes on. In fact I would bet that MOST RTS games that feature multiple teams make sure the teams are VASTLY unique from one another.
Sure, every team is going to need a "scout" ship other basic units. And certain buildings are going to overlap in functionality. But I do agree with the OP. Other than having one team "have better shields" an another "cost more but more attack and armor" really isn't that special.


The only game you listed that really plays "different" significantly more so than Sins is Starcraft.
Reply #27 Top
I'd say the differences between races is more apparent than in most 4X games, but on the other hand, doesn't compare to most RTS games. Which is fine, because Sins is supposed to straddle the two genres.


I personally think this is the balanced position.

Those arguing that Sins has as much race diversity as a standard RTS are just throwing out a knee jerk defense. Starcraft, Warcraft, Dawn of War, and even the new Earth Assualt show a ton more diversity racially, down to economic models for each race.

Sins has less racial diversity than most RTS'es. BUT it doesn't NEED or BENEFIT from having as much diversity.

Diversity comes from your choices DURING play with whatever race you choose, because the options are so much more wide-open than a RTS. That's the way 4X's tend to be. For example, racial diversity in MOO boiled down to a couple of racial bonus traits. But this affected the way you made all your other choices (choices open to all races, by the way).

So, objectively I think you have to admit it has less diversity especially in terms of units and structures. However, that's about all the diversity that can be incorporated without making the game extremely unbalanced or complex.
Reply #28 Top
Relax. Something you must learn (something that SD already has) is that not everyone will like every aspect of your game. You don't need to respond with displeasure every time someone doesn't agree with you.


Reading and comprehension. Something you must learn.

DatonKallandor said,"It makes no sense and is dumbed down for no reason but to make it easier for the devs."


Craig Fraser responded with,"That is insulting and not true."

I say, of course it is insulting when somebody comes into your house and insults you on your work.


Reply #29 Top
My $.02:

Yes and no. And let me clarify that with the following

I have the same issues with all space based games (and movies)
1. An unrealistically high number of races seem to be bipedal and humanoid
2. Their cultures seem to be more of extreme extensions of our own culture/history than anything truly 'alien' (and potentially incomprehensible)
3. Most of the aliens encountered seem to be able to produce a tech base on par with everyone else. Everyone can use their abilities like a r/p/s on everyone else

That being said there are very very good reasons behind these issues:
1. Production values - to go outside of any of these boxes would require large additional amounts of time and money. Arguably some companies do better than others. I think SD and Ironclad do an amazing job creating their games
2. Learing curve - I don't want to spend 3 months playing a race to understand all their nuances only to move to another race that is so different, so alien, that I have to spend 3 months understanding them and so on and so on
3. Game balancing - a nightmare

I do not believe that the issues I mentioned first can prevent enjoyable games from being made - if fact I find both SoaSE and GCII to be immensely entertaining and varied

(My points contain many generalities. There are variations on all the issues, but I believe that near all the genre fits inside those constraints to one extent or another
Reply #30 Top
Oh look, it's daton.
Reply #31 Top
The only game you listed that really plays "different" significantly more so than Sins is Starcraft.


Can you further explain why the other ones are not "different" and why only StarCraft is?
Reply #32 Top

I say, of course it is insulting when somebody comes into your house and insults you on your work.


I think most posters are customers or potential customers. That position is very much different than a guest.

People can, will, and should criticize a product that they paid money for. We're not here as random guests that should kow tow to the devs. Of course, people shouldn't be overly rude as a basic rule, but I don't see where the original comment was worthy of some sort of backseat moderating.

Reply #33 Top
People are welcome and encouraged to write about their experiences with the game.  Anyone who was involved in the beta process, has ever spoken to a Dev in the IRC chat, or the Game lobby for any length of time knows our stance on being abnormally receptive to constructive critizism :)  I could list pages of changes made to the game as result of this process. What we dont tolerate is blatant lies.  Despite being rude, there is nothing wrong with Daton's post, and I wouldn't have said a thing if it weren't for the last line. 
Reply #34 Top
I think your problem is that you viewed the game through an war/offensive eye instead of pondering on the other types of gameplay that's offered here. This is not a simple RTS where you win through mindless massing and ploying. You have to develop an empire to win.

Sure, some of the ships look and act similar (but the weapon technology is different as well so keep that in mind). But Sins is more diverse than other RTS like Supreme Commander
Reply #35 Top
Of course the ships and structures are all similar, the game uses the research trees to bring out the individuality to the races. Just like other games create wholly unique characters, Sins uses totally different reseach abilities at different phases to make each civilization completly unique. THe difference is there, it's just that you overlooked it beacuse of the elegance behind it. For example with the Vasari I think you can get all your frigates reseaches with only two military reaseach outposts, in comparison to the TEC which require you have three. Simple things like that make each reace completly unique. And each capital ship plays to the races advantage in a very unique way. Have you maxed out capital ship reseach with all three races?
Reply #36 Top
The Races are nearly identical. Sorry, having two different buildings after half the research tree is not "diverse" - it's asinine. The "always on the run" Vasari have credits, fixed buildings, colonize worlds and have the exact same economy as the Millenium old Capitalist Empire and the Hive-Mindish Psi-Commune. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. It makes no sense and is dumbed down for no reason but to make it easier for the devs.


The Races are nearly identical. Sorry, having two different buildings after half the research tree is not "diverse" - it's asinine. The "always on the run" Vasari have credits, fixed buildings, colonize worlds and have the exact same economy as the Millenium old Capitalist Empire and the Hive-Mindish Psi-Commune. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. It makes no sense and is dumbed down for no reason but to make it easier for the devs.


Look sir! Opinions!
Reply #37 Top
I dont know why people think they want something different than all race has bacie same role, I mean one person have a gun, other person should have gun, but you want this person has a gun, but other person want a spoon? I dotn think very fair fight, and fight would be pointless.
Reply #38 Top
Humility, your post is perfect in every way.
Reply #39 Top
the problem with moo3 is that you can change your species streangths readily to much human economy :) 
Reply #40 Top
I don't mind them being very similar. Although in Sots the differences are very pronounce and very fun at the same time :)
Reply #41 Top
races r basically the same. it was the easy option rather than going that extra mile and making unique units for each race. when u look at a game like company of heroes or C&C where u get different units for each faction, trying to make those factions balanced can be very difficult. coh is so not balanced currently but thats something that the devs who chose to go that extra mile will fix eventually.

i personally think the devs working on sins chose the easy option but hey the game is still great and i enjoy playing it a lot.
Reply #42 Top
The first step in the right direction for a gaming genre, often stumbles when the fan-base trips over it's own words and desires.

There is no perfect game. You're all fools for pretending it will ever exist.
Reply #43 Top


POSTED BY matt_pkp
The game does fail at being 4x enough for me, but overall it does other things ok that make up for the lack of options.

POSTED BY garion333
Agreed.


Stupidity at its finest ^

The game is a REAL-TIME STRATEGY, UNRIVALLED SCALE as the title of this site says

It is mainly Real time strategy with a few 4x features

If you are a hardcore 4x player then Sins is probably not for you
Reply #44 Top

I'd say the differences between races is more apparent than in most 4X games, but on the other hand, doesn't compare to most RTS games. Which is fine, because Sins is supposed to straddle the two genres.


I personally think this is the balanced position.

Those arguing that Sins has as much race diversity as a standard RTS are just throwing out a knee jerk defense. Starcraft, Warcraft, Dawn of War, and even the new Earth Assualt show a ton more diversity racially, down to economic models for each race.

Sins has less racial diversity than most RTS'es. BUT it doesn't NEED or BENEFIT from having as much diversity.

Diversity comes from your choices DURING play with whatever race you choose, because the options are so much more wide-open than a RTS. That's the way 4X's tend to be. For example, racial diversity in MOO boiled down to a couple of racial bonus traits. But this affected the way you made all your other choices (choices open to all races, by the way).

So, objectively I think you have to admit it has less diversity especially in terms of units and structures. However, that's about all the diversity that can be incorporated without making the game extremely unbalanced or complex.



While indeed a bit of a knee jerk defense, most of it isn't that far off if you think it through. In DoW, only 1 race does not use the exact economic model as the rest (Necron). The other races have barracks, mech buildings, turrets, research buildings, power plants, req "extractors" (for a lack of a better word) and so forth, so by a glance, everything is exactly the same structurally with buildings, with the same number of upgrades in their HQs for the most part.. There are slight variety but it took them to make a total of 7 races and 2 expansions before all that came to be.

The real variety on DoW does not come with each race as all the buildings are placed exactly the same in the building menu for each race (which was a complaint about Sins in this topic) as well as with many races, the units are placed same-ish too, according to them being long/short range. The variety in DoW truly comes with how each race is meant to be played and by what techs you wish to pursue, which is the point people are trying to make about Sins.

In Sins, you have to use your capship abilities correctly and at the right time for them to have the desired effect. And you need to activate them manually as well, if you want the greatest effect. I'm far from the greatest Sins player in existance but even I can see the folly of the computer deciding to make my Vasari ship immune to jump inhibition as soon as it faces an enemy ship, instead of when I make it leave the well, as well as having to use the push ability on 1 fighter group instead of the following 10 with Advent.

While I do think it could do well with a few special ship types for each faction, it's also worth noting that since this is a 4x game too, it means certain things must be similar as well. If you have ever levelled a capship to 10, you'd notice that if, say a Vasari battleship, started with even just a little more advantage than it has now, it will by the last tier be so much better at ship to ship combat, the rest of the capitals can just pack up and leave if you bring a few of them and a couple of support ships. One of it's abilities at level 3 is a 75% faster cooldown and 250% faster shield repair, I believe, and add to that the enlarged antimatter cap techs, faster antimatter regen, shield/hull regen and weapon bonii, you should begin to see why there is a need for them to be fairly similar between all races.
Reply #45 Top

I've been thinking... Why the hell do the three races look pretty much alike... In Logistic view, I mean...


They have similarities in some areas but they are not the same

At least the 3 races of SINS have more diversity
from
the 3 factions of Supreme Commander
Reply #46 Top


Agreed.


Thanks for that worthless post. Maybe you could have said you're sorry to the developer for waltzing into his forum, squatting, and defecating all over his nice new game that has won praise from pretty much everybody except the people who post here?


your taking the words out of my mouth.......
the game is great as it is, some adjustments in balancing
but all games need that!

keep up the good work devs  :CONGRAT: 
Reply #47 Top


They have similarities in some areas but they are not the same

At least the 3 races of SINS have more diversity
from
the 3 factions of Supreme Commander


You mean the 1 faction with 3 unit sets :/ LAWL I despise SC
Reply #48 Top



They have similarities in some areas but they are not the same

At least the 3 races of SINS have more diversity
from
the 3 factions of Supreme Commander


You mean the 1 faction with 3 unit sets :/ LAWL I despise SC


I enjoyed it. I still play it, despite Sins taking up the majority of my time.

I don't understand the need to compare, and/or bash video games.

Sins is a great game. Who cares if the races are similar? That just leaves something for them to change and/or add for the next expansion. Progress is a process, and you can't expect people to get everything perfect the first time out of the gate.
Reply #49 Top
Progress is a process, and you can't expect people to get everything perfect the first time out of the gate.


even though they did... :D

about unit diversity: think of it this way
when we were cavemen, all cultures were pretty much the same... hunter/gatherers who lived in tribes

as our knowledge and technology grew, we became much more diversified and our cultures were no longer able to be grouped into one large catagory of tribal hunter/gatherers

sins is the same way... at the beggining, there pretty much the same, but as you tech up your style of play starts to diverge

Reply #50 Top
Oh look, its Daton the troll. Please do not feed.