Phase missile shield negation questions

from Sins Forums
1. Does shield mitigation affect damage done to the hull (once shields are gone or because of shield negation)?

2. If yes, is damage done on a successful shield negation still affected by shield mitigation?

If the answers to these questions are yes and no, respectively, then I think that the shield negation actually makes phase missiles worse in almost all situations (the exception being super shield tanks). The reason being that splitting damage between hull and shield from the beginning allows both to be regenerating from the start of the battle, increaasing the amount of damage the target can take overall. It's possible that a shield tank could have so many more shield hps that the shield negation could take the hull to zero before the shield was gone, potentially overcoming the inadvertant boost to the target, but I think that's probably rare, especially against the AI. I just played a game where I was using phase missiles exclusively, and, with full shield negation (30%) I didn't see a single target die with shield hps left, not even close. I tracked probably 30-40 targets, all factions, capital and frigate (though I'm sure there are a number of ship types I didn't see).

Does anybody want to do the math to figure out how much more shield a target has to have (taking regeneration into account) before shield negation actually helps the Vasari rather than hurting them (assuming the two initial assumptions regarding shield mitigation are correct)? Because I strongly suspect that its a number so high as to be extremely rare, especially in single player.
25,416 views 15 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
1) Yes, shield mitigation affects damage done to the hull (or at least, that's what it says in the manual and the game's only 7 days old)

2) No idea, never bothered with that advent tech for shield negation, it seemed worthless to me. if 20% of your damage ignores the shield, they're still going to die at the exact same moment.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
shield mitigation doesn't affect damage done directly to the hull, i.e. shields down or negated. What it does do is increases the efficiency of the shields so that 250 shield points with only a 15% mitigation factor will take much less damage before dropping than that same 250 shield points with a 75% mitigation factor.

because of this, the vasari tech to have missiles ignore shields is very useful, especially if the fleet you are fighting has some nice shield regeneration abilities. i.e. the dunov's and advent colony cap's abilities.
Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
OK, two responses, two contradictory answers - we're off to a good start.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

OK, two responses, two contradictory answers - we're off to a good start.
End of quote


AND, both peoples names start with a D, end in N, and have the exact same number of letters. They also both have the same consonant to vowel ratio. In fact, the consonants and vowels line up, except for the third and forth letters, which are switched (one is consonant vowel, the other is vowel consonant). Clearly they are evil twins dedicated to a conspiracy to sow mass confusion throughout the world.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Hey, the manual backs me up, (course, we all know how accurate manuals are ;p )
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
I'm just going on play experience, buth in final and beta. When shields are up, there is no damage done to hull whatsoever unless its a shield negating attack, like the vasari phase missiles. If the attack negates the shields, from what i've seen, it acts like there were no shields to stop it.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
It does more damage to the hull than it does if the shields are down? or it just acts like the shields are down?
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
it just acts like the shields are down so by the time the shields are down and all your other weps come streaming in on the hull, the hull is already down as much as a quarter or maybe even half strength or less, depending on if the enemy fleet had any shield booster ships in it. When a ship is hit with phase missiles, it takes hull damage unless its phased out.

Its hard to see some of this because damage currently isn't assigned to a target until the end of the weapons firing sequence meaning that instead of getting constant hp changes, you get a lot of big ones, but in between the big ones, the ship regens a couple of hit points and shield points.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top

If the answers to these questions are yes and no, respectively, then I think that the shield negation actually makes phase missiles worse in almost all situations (the exception being super shield tanks).
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This has been noticed, commented on, and complained about since early beta 4 :D
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
Well, here's why shield pen in general isn't helpful.

Here's what 30% shield pen looks like (100 hp, 100 shield, 50 damage per shot)
Shields - Hull
100 - 100
65 - 85
30 - 70
0 - 50
0 - 0

It would die in exactly 4 shots, which is the same as if it had 0% shield pen
100 - 100
50 - 100
0 - 100
0 - 50
0 - 0

Shield pen only helps if you have a ton of it, or if the enemy has very little hull and tons of shields

Now - if it ignores mitigation, then it would still be very useful, because it would be like getting a random hit for triple damage.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
The problem is that if you still want to use assailants or the vasari flak frigates against targets with low shield to HP ratio (mostly TEC) you have to tech up a lot and also get all the phase penetration upgrades to get to the damage upgrades, as opposed to all the other ships witch can have there damage upgrades as soon as the ship is available.

I belive the damage upgrades to the phase torpedoes should be the same as for the other ships: have no research prerequirements, be lower on the tech tree, and be 3 upgrades with 2 levels each that increese the damage by 5% each.

Seem kinda stupid to upgrade something that you dont need to get to something that you need.

But like Durikkan said:"if it ignores mitigation, then it would still be very useful, because it would be like getting a random hit for triple damage."

I wander if there is a way to test this...
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
I did some tests and it seams that the phase torpedo does ignore mitigation, but it also increases it like a normal attack.

But the tests were not perfect so i am not sure if i am right.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
Eh, we tested this yesterday.

Mitigation applies regardless of wether or not it has shields (so, there is hull "mitigation"), but phase missiles that pass shields aren't mitigated.

It essentially works out that a phase% is better than an equivalent +dmg% once shield mitigation is past 50%. Before 50%, +dmg% is the better bet. Focus fire with the Vasari, phase-missile lovers. ;)