General Warfare Strategy

I see a great number of posts pertaining to the balance of this game. Most of them are gripes, insisting that the mass production or "spamming" or certain types of ships is a guaranteed victory. What I would submit is that it's the typical style of gameplay at fault here, and not so much the strengths and/or weaknesses of the units of the game.

I've played approximately 10 games to completion (or at least to the point where everyone quits) and I've noticed a repeating pattern. To generalize, players are stockpiling units as a one to two hour lead-in to the final "coup de gras" battle. Once that battle is over, the losers usually resign. I see this not only as poor strategy, but also a monumental wasting of time. Furthermore, the player who loses the battle will often retaliate by explaining how over-powered or unbalanced the winners units are and so on.

That is why these forums have seen so many of these claims and counterclaims. The problem with said claims, however, is that there is a near complete lack of evidence to support it. Even the player who has spent night and day with this game so far has most likely only brought his strategy to face with enemies a handful of times due to the eventual nature of combat in this game. Another dimension of this problem is apparently a number of individuals have earnestly, yet mistakenly, assured themselves that using only one type of unit is the key to success.

This game was not only designed and balanced by professionals, it also underwent extensive testing. The problem is not an unbalanced game, it is unbalanced gameplay. Without turning this post into a research paper, I'll merely say that I've attended a number of lectures and sessions on game theory, design, and balance. One of the most common themes, particularly in the multiplayer balancing arena, is what I call "community acquired nerfing." It applies to many genres of games, but namely strategy, action, and role-playing. Essentially, the majority of online players begin implementing a tactic that is effective. There are other, equally powerful tactics available, including powerful counter-tactics. Those other tactics are being ignored, however, in the face of the tried and true existing methods. A bomb then explodes in community forums. People whine and complain until finally the developers obliterate the tactic with a balance-changing patch. Amazingly, this cycle repeats and often the changes made previously will be undone, with the final version of the game resembling something quite similar in balance to the original product. This problem is exacerbated in Sins because of the long lead-in nature of combat; players are taking so much time to build one fleet that little attention is being paid to alternative styles of warfare.

Aside from culture and economy, let's stir up some opinion on combat strategy. Both general campaign strategy (fleet composition, offensive/defensive tactics) and specific battle strategy (targeting, micro-management).

There is likely a better way to conduct a campaign than to build one fleet and slam it against the walls of the opponent's proverbial castle. I have, for example, tried invading my opponent on multiple fronts early on. This forces them to split their juggernaut fleet and divert their attention to many areas, something that I have sometimes proven better at doing myself, obviously. This leads into the specific combat strategy. Since I was all over the map, my enemy didn't have time to micromanage his ships and target my capitals. Speaking of that, has anyone had luck doing anything but trying to blow up only capitals in a large scale engagement?

What about mixing your main offensive with economical raids? It doesn't seem so hard to slip through enemy defenses with a large enough force. How about LRM frigates targeting trade ports, refineries, and research stations in the softer parts of an opponent's empire? Is it pertinent to take the feet out from underneath someone as an alternative to beating them toe-to-toe?

What the community ought to do, (I don't have the time for this), is get together and build a directory of replays that feature something other than "look at all my ships." Just food for thought, tell me what you think.
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Reply #1 Top
I think Sins of a Solar Empire punishes overly hasty expansion, either in terms of force-movement or industrial base build up. So a lot of people are reluctant to go and skirmish with anything other than a 14-ship wandering siege frigate blitz.

Economic wise commerce raiding isn't worth a damn thing, most especially of refinery ships.

Either way, give it a month or so. I think I'll actually be moving out of my carefully crafted single player shell and playing online soon, I'm kind of dissatisfied with what I see as a redundant AI behavior myself.
Reply #2 Top
Raiding can be be worth it, not becuase you win credits by raiding, but becuase the enemy loses buildings that he has to rebuild later.
But it's hard to raid, everything has so much life (hit points) in this game. You can't attack, destroy a few buildings and retreat fast, really.
Reply #3 Top
Just bulid some scout ships, and send them to various planets owned by the enemy, all if possible. This is always fun to annoy the player by having multiple structures (even if the buildings regenerate it) under attack. The player will often send a large section of his force to deal with them, or start building defenses.

If the player sends some of ships, this will obviously make him weaker.
If he builds defenses, a large chunk of his income is wasted. This becomes a small thorn later on though, but by than it won't matter.
Reply #4 Top
I think once IC gets their replay database up and running we will see a lot more diversification of strategy. Right now many games are random groups of people, many of which have little to no game experience.

A few strategy notes:
(Note, I generally play 2v2 or 3v3 locked games)

Scout throughout the game.
I would say at least 1/3 of the games I have played are over before the giant ship blob our enemy is building launches, because we have been watching them and build up a counter fleet or at least have a plan to mitigate damages.

Break through the lines or come from a different angle.
Some times things escalate to the point you are commited to a fight and pulling out is no longer practical. During this, however, if you can strike at some factories or labs you can start to turn the tide of the battle taking place elsewhere.

Harass weak points constantly.
If they are grouping up on one side of the map, stall them there while you hit the undefended side. If both sides end up with crippled fleets in the large battle, we can rebuild more effiecently because we are not trying to build ships and fix the damage to our sectors at the same time.

Make the other guys divide their attention, especially to something you really don't care about.
Epic 3.5 hour 3v3 game was won last night because the Vasari spamming Returning Armada was dealing with raids and re-colonizing planets (TEC super weapon targets) and not watching the large battle going on. In that fight my Dunov gained ~4 lvls and my Kol gained 5. His capital ships died first and only pure strike craft superiority kept us from advancing further.

Not the deepest strategies, but I hope these help people in developing their own strategies.  :) 
Reply #5 Top

I've played approximately 10 games to completion (or at least to the point where everyone quits) and I've noticed a repeating pattern. To generalize, players are stockpiling units as a one to two hour leadin to the final "coup de gras" battle. Once that battle is over, the losers usually resign. I see this not only as poor strategy, but also a monumental wasting of time. Furthermore, the player who loses the battle, will often retaliate by explaining how over-powered or unbalanced the winners units are and so on.
End of quote


Not poor strategy but just strategy actually. If you read Clausewitz's Vom Krieg he explains why but to give a quick summary: Decisive victories are always sought after. As for the last line, yeah that's true of any RTS but there is always imba it's a matter of how much.

But, now for the honest reply to your question.

Speaking of that, has anyone had luck doing anything but trying to blow up only capitals in a large scale engagement?
End of quote


Yes, target the smaller vessels to reduce DPS dramatically and also by the time you lose a cap ship you should have taken down cost at the very least equal to or greater than your cap ship plus whatever else is counted for experience up to level four. A loss of a capital ship at level 5+ is unacceptable however. This game is a numbers game generally. That being said, why the hell would you have flak ships targetting the cap ship when they do nearly zero DPS against capital armor, they're better directed vs fighters and LRM.

Your fleet should be targeting and exploiting things with the greatest weakness versus the damage. Hence, your bombers will be focusing on capitals while your fighters will be focusing on light armored frigates. Your main line be it the LRMs or whatever else can either focus fire the support or their cap ship depending on YOUR GOAL. You can either try to DPS race down their cap ship or kill some of their units and pull out before they down yours in which case you have a slightly damaged cap ship with loss of anti matter due to hyper spacing and they have lost actual materials.

Economic warfare is very hard to pull off and is usually done in FFAs by manipulating the market and even with raiding against economic centers it is not going to ensure a decisive victory which may mean that they will do the same thing to you and it becomes a boring battle of attrition. If you can manage to split your armada then you can try this but the opponent will either be chasing you or doing the same thing , if you're going onto their home turf expect to be thoroughly lashed if they have phase jump inhibitors. In the end, it's just a very complex strategy to execute with very little rewards as opposed to smashing someone head on. As I mentioned before, econ screwing is best done in a FFA but not in a 1v1 not in a team game due to the resilience of the structures and the need to have a balanced fleet/large fleet/reactionary fleet.


Is it pertinent to take the feet out from underneath someone as an alternative to beating them toe-to-toe.
End of quote


A single loss of an LRM would also mean you would at least need to take out one metal extractor and the loss of a few would mean you would have to take out at least a refinery or a trade center, it takes awhile even with 20 ships to take down a structure by which time the opponent can react or has done something else to extract an equal price from your hide. It is always better to destroy the enemy fleet head to head simply because it ACHIEVES A DECISIVE VICTORY . Unless... it's early on say before the 20 minute mark.

With the current lay out of the game, it's better to clash toe to toe, if they cheapened siege vessels then it might be arguable to run a secondary fleet of siegers to destroy an enemy planet. Problem is that regardless it eats from your standing fleet which means when it comes time to fight that decisive armada battle you will have lost some advantage. Before in the beta system where fleet size was governed by planets, it could've been arguable for it to be a strategy of a certain type.


That being said, the opponent should almost always know where you are and vice versa due to extensive scouting which makes parting your fleet a painful thing. As the one initiating a divided attack, you are allocating resources first which enables the opponent to calculate how much he or she needs to fan out to either counter or take more. In either case, you are at a slight disadvantage despite having the initiative.
Reply #6 Top
So basically:

1. Scout.
2. Counter/Harass
3. Rinse and repeat
4. Victory


Same as any RTS really until you hit FFAs.
Reply #7 Top
I completely agree with the OP (original poster.) It’s my belief that the majority of strategy gamers have been weaned into playing in a certain fashion, turtle or rush, those strategies have been catered for by game dynamics and those they play against.

But not Sins, I’m glad to see that Sins opens an entire host of different tactics for us to employ, so the limitations of the two play styles is no longer there, it’s just a matter of people changing their strategy viewpoints.




Reply #8 Top
The key to victory is to control more resources than anyone else. That and scouting.
Reply #9 Top
Simple fix to be honest.

Change the resource speed option. From 10x slower to 10x faster. Let the players pick the resource speed. Even 50x either way.

How will this fix? Simple.

People dont have 14 hours to blast at every game on a unique stratagy that might not work. Thats why they make a blob and charge it, quiting if their blob dies. The game is artifically slow due to slow resources.

More resources = players can gain confidence in fast resource maps to try out various stratagies on normal speed maps.
Reply #10 Top
I think they should just reduce civilian health on, well, everything.
Reply #11 Top
As Limz pointed out, its generally a bad idea to try and take a squad of ships just to try and hurt someones economy. It takes about 2 minutes to destroy a single building with a small squad of LRM's, not to mention the time it took you just to get in range to start firing, so your opponent already has about a solid 5 minutes to respond to this.

Now you have to take into account the cost of buildings to ships, which is extremely low. If you lose two ships, your raid was useless, and now your enemy has better positioning, a larger army, and more resources to work with. Even if you don't lose a single ship, and manage to destroy some buildings, your max fleet size at home is now smaller then his, so a full front attack by him to win the game is more likely to succeed, all your really doing is giving him an opening to destroy you.

At this point, the best strategy is scouting until you find a weakness, then exploit it, with everything you can muster. Either that or waiting for your opponent to make the first move and try to out defend him, then counterstrike.

I do agree with you though, I would love to see some more strategies become viable with patch balancing, but as it stands the strategy of hording all your forces into one major winner takes all battle is the best strategy.
Reply #12 Top

I completely agree with the OP (original poster.) It’s my belief that the majority of strategy gamers have been weaned into playing in a certain fashion, turtle or rush, those strategies have been catered for by game dynamics and those they play against.

But not Sins, I’m glad to see that Sins opens an entire host of different tactics for us to employ, so the limitations of the two play styles is no longer there, it’s just a matter of people changing their strategy viewpoints.
End of quote


Unfortunately that is not quite the case, Sins is a victim of normal RTS ploys: You either are teching up, harassing, or rushing. As I mentioned earlier only in FFAs can you monopolize and cripple someone by econ bashing even then it is very elaborate and inefficient.

The marvel of Sins is like any RTS - the micro. Note that you said tactics not strategy that's where micro falls under. Since this game requires you to have a fleet, you are very limited in what you can do to win. You can econ screw all you want but when they nuke your planets in return there isn't much room for creative grand strategy. However, there is plenty of room for micro! =P
Reply #13 Top
There has allways been 3 tactics. Turtle, attack and harass. And combinations of the three. (turle while harassing to get tech lead etc.) This game isnt different in that aspect. And actually even games like starcraft the macro is still important, not only micro. (even if the koreans do have godly good micro) if you know when to expand and do it in a smart way you will economy win over your opponent even if your micro is worse. I saw plently of examples of this in the asencion replays (the best of america/europe gets invited into groups and fight for 2 hours until one winner stands in each group and then they go on to the final etc.)


Reply #14 Top
What about raiding planets? How much econ damage would a group of siege frigates nuking a planet do? Not only would your opponent they lose the income of the planet until they can recolonize, but they also have the negative income while the planet is being redeveloped, the loss of population, and they'd have to rebuild all planet developments. Might be more cost effective than attacking orbiting structures, which are generally cheaper to replace than the ships you'd lose in the attack. I know the CPU does a lot of damage to me with relentless siege frigate raids on my back planets if I let down my guard on a front.
Reply #15 Top
I would say raiding planets is under harass and defintivly a tactic one can persue.
Reply #16 Top
Yeah, when I send my main armada at their frontlines, I find it useful to bring in a few groups of just siege frigates about a minute later, and send them on into their economic backline. I ignore buildings completely, and just look to bomb the planet. If I have my main fleet tying up their's on the frontline, they either have to decide what to split back, potentially giving me the upperhand on the front, or ignore the sieges, which will ideally be bombing 3 or 4 planets, a couple of jumps back.
Reply #17 Top
I like to use Raze Planet Marzas for econ harass. They rip things up and and require a lot more resources to counter than a few siege frigates.
Reply #18 Top
I had a good game against hard AI on a huge map yesterday with some nice raiding going on. It was a monster raid of one Flagship TEC carrier, wich has that economic lockdown ability, about fifteen flak frigates, around thirty escort carriers and a couple repair cruisers. Later this was suplamented with two more cap ships, and more escorts of the types above (though the caps were the wrong kind as mentioned the Mazra would have been alot better as we could have wasted worlds).

Anway, the fleet could pick most systems clean just while flying through, although they couldn't kill the planets.

But what worked so well was that the enemy fleet, which was just a monster, it was so big I never even saw it all at once, started chasing them through their systems, which was actualy the next star system over which they split with only one other viable faction that was humbled and huddling on the far side. Once they were all higgledy piggeldy and spread out in the pursuit, the battle fleet, which was small, but pretty head on with Kodiak cruisers, Flak frigates and five capitol ships came in to clean up the scraps and just wasted worlds which were too far off for the enemy fleet to get back to.

The other thing was that chasing a carrier fleet of the size mentioned above is horrible because the fighters can deal huge damage while the ships run and particularly they can assasinate capitol ships. So, by the time they actually 'caught' me, they were the ones running away as they got hit with the pincer of the battle fleet from behind and had almost no caps left 9they must have lost about twelve including replacements). The battle almost didn't have a climax, it was just me running replaced by them running.

Now that was satisfying. It was death by the harras strategy.

That said, they should have built alot more flak frigates, that would have been the best counter.

Reply #19 Top
Just bulid some scout ships, and send them to various planets owned by the enemy, all if possible. This is always fun to annoy the player by having multiple structures (even if the buildings regenerate it) under attack. The player will often send a large section of his force to deal with them, or start building defenses.

If the player sends some of ships, this will obviously make him weaker.
If he builds defenses, a large chunk of his income is wasted. This becomes a small thorn later on though, but by than it won't matter.
End of quote


srry to say but.. theres 1 example where u absolutely shouldnt use this tactic
if you play as the TEC or have an allied TEC

TEC have a neat tech, attacked by rebels
as soon as you or your ally aquires this technology keep his fleet busy keeping you out
2 kodiaks and 3 lrm's can be MORE annoying to an undefended system then your own fleet attacking the enemy is


attack him wih scouts so early and he'll change tactics and make at least 1 gun per planet... you dont want that in this case :P


always take as much advantage as posible !!!!!!, even if it means taking it from your allies (use your brain when to do this and when not ;)
Reply #20 Top
Blowing up structures is too difficult and lengthy. A speed upgrade for some ships might help. I'm making a anti-heavy hit and run frigate for my minimod.