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Pirates - A way too easy win

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Pirates - A way too easy win

Pirates simple strategy

from Sins Forums
Firstly, this is a great game. My one complaint is pirates. Not that they bother me, but that they make winning way too easy.

If I was going to write a strategy guide for SINS it will be one paragraph long. Here it is:

"Watch the Pirate timer. Make sure you have funds before timer runs out. Always, always, always win the bounty bidding war and never ever have pirates attack you. You will win the AI on any difficultly setting, all the time".

I know that since I’ve discovered this, I have yet to lose a game. Keep my enemies killing each other and let the AI deal with pirates.

I mean, can this really be that easy? Does anybody out there agree with me?

I’ve read forums here about strategies to fend off pirates, build defenses on phase lanes, etc. Why bother. Just out bid to make them attach your enemies. It is much easier to spend credits to make pirates attach enemies then credits on pirate phase lane defenses and micro-managing your fleet to fight off pirates.

I hope they come out with a patch to make pirates less powerful. They should be a mosquito-type annoyance as opposed to a sure way to win any game.
Or better yet, make options to disable the bounty bidding war and have pirates attack at random on their own discretion. Or an option to take them out altogether.

Pirates don’t fit in to the theme/look of the game anyway. I mean, it’s the future, with tech and light travel like never before and you got pirates, with spikes/crossbones who say things like "Arrrr". I mean really, if a SINS expansion comes out with player controlled boarding battles, will we see peg legs, eye patches and shoulder parrots on the crew of these ships.

Any thoughts?


strategy
34,802 views 67 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top
Sending them after the AI is an option. Its not manditory. If your not getting the level of challenge you want, change how you play. Let the pirates attack you.

No matter what you do, you will always find a way of "easily beating the AI" in most games.
Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top
If you want allies, Pirate is one for you!  :) 
Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top
I like to let the pirates attack me so that my capital ship gets xp fed.
Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
Isn't that a bit sad? Why have pirates in the game when all they do is a) cripple the AI and b) give your ships free Xp when you feel like it.

That's why I suggested to give them their own game-dynamics.
E.g. they should have their own credits-deposit. Their goal then is to gain more money by looting trade- and refinery ships, or collecing bounty, or both. The money they gain is then invested in more vessels so they can take on bigger targets.
That way the pirates would have their very own strategy. E.g. they'd tend to make raids on the trade-ships that pass through the gravity well of an asteroid field because there are no defenses there, so they can loot 20 trade ships before making a run for it. They could also put the resources they got from destroyed refinery ships for offer on the black market.
I think that would help a lot both with the overall gameplay and the atmosphere of the game, because a) the pirates will e.g. still raid your even if there is more bounty on another party when you didn't defend one of your gravity-wells at all because it's easier money for them and b) there is some sort of logics attached to pirates, so they look like a logical part of the game and not an assembly of script-events, which would be an immense boost to the atmosphere.
Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top
I am glad my thread here has sparked much debate on pirates. I think your suggestions are great ones and would resolve my complaint of easy wins through pirates attacking AI. I wonder if the developers ever take these seriously and patch or expand accordingly.
Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
Isn't that a bit sad? Why have pirates in the game when all they do is a) cripple the AI and b) give your ships free Xp when you feel like it.

That's why I suggested to give them their own game-dynamics.
E.g. they should have their own credits-deposit. Their goal then is to gain more money by looting trade- and refinery ships, or collecing bounty, or both. The money they gain is then invested in more vessels so they can take on bigger targets.
That way the pirates would have their very own strategy. E.g. they'd tend to make raids on the trade-ships that pass through the gravity well of an asteroid field because there are no defenses there, so they can loot 20 trade ships before making a run for it. They could also put the resources they got from destroyed refinery ships for offer on the black market.
I think that would help a lot both with the overall gameplay and the atmosphere of the game, because a) the pirates will e.g. still raid your even if there is more bounty on another party when you didn't defend one of your gravity-wells at all because it's easier money for them and b) there is some sort of logics attached to pirates, so they look like a logical part of the game and not an assembly of script-events, which would be an immense boost to the atmosphere.
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This is very incentful and would mak ethe game better
Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
indeed!!
give the pirates some AI and make them more or less a separate faction with faction dynamics.... perhaps even in multiplayer let someone play as pirates if they so choose...
have pirates still attack targets with bounty, but let them build their fleets with their plunder and bounty, let them become a reconing force in the game if not dealt with!
basicly make them a whole new sort of AI, one with their own profit oriented logic and their own systems for existing :) this would turn them from being a boring old punch card computer into a 'hal' :D "Arrrrg! I'm sure you can do that, Blair!"
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top
Pirates seem pretty week. Even if all you have is a few planetary defenses and a repair station you can pretty much ignore them. The only annoying thing is they tend to spread out between all your buildings and thus take much longer to clear out than if they stayed in a fleet.
Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top

Isn't that a bit sad? Why have pirates in the game when all they do is a) cripple the AI and b) give your ships free Xp when you feel like it.

That's why I suggested to give them their own game-dynamics.
E.g. they should have their own credits-deposit. Their goal then is to gain more money by looting trade- and refinery ships, or collecing bounty, or both. The money they gain is then invested in more vessels so they can take on bigger targets.
That way the pirates would have their very own strategy. E.g. they'd tend to make raids on the trade-ships that pass through the gravity well of an asteroid field because there are no defenses there, so they can loot 20 trade ships before making a run for it. They could also put the resources they got from destroyed refinery ships for offer on the black market.
I think that would help a lot both with the overall gameplay and the atmosphere of the game, because a) the pirates will e.g. still raid your even if there is more bounty on another party when you didn't defend one of your gravity-wells at all because it's easier money for them and b) there is some sort of logics attached to pirates, so they look like a logical part of the game and not an assembly of script-events, which would be an immense boost to the atmosphere.
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and raiding research stations for tech maybe?
Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top

I agree that the pirates are fairly easy to fend off, but the OP is 100% right in that it's better to let the AI deal with them in the early game, especially the first couple of attacks. Fending off the first few pirate attacks will delay your colonisation strategy, sure you'll gain levels but you can gain those levels by killing neutrals around other planets so there's no real advantage here.

On the other hand by sending them to the AI you cripple their colonising and give yourself a huge headstart. All that for what? 500 credits. I'd say it's worth it.


Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top

Isn't that a bit sad? Why have pirates in the game when all they do is a) cripple the AI and b) give your ships free Xp when you feel like it.

That's why I suggested to give them their own game-dynamics.
E.g. they should have their own credits-deposit. Their goal then is to gain more money by looting trade- and refinery ships, or collecing bounty, or both. The money they gain is then invested in more vessels so they can take on bigger targets.
That way the pirates would have their very own strategy. E.g. they'd tend to make raids on the trade-ships that pass through the gravity well of an asteroid field because there are no defenses there, so they can loot 20 trade ships before making a run for it. They could also put the resources they got from destroyed refinery ships for offer on the black market.
I think that would help a lot both with the overall gameplay and the atmosphere of the game, because a) the pirates will e.g. still raid your even if there is more bounty on another party when you didn't defend one of your gravity-wells at all because it's easier money for them and b) there is some sort of logics attached to pirates, so they look like a logical part of the game and not an assembly of script-events, which would be an immense boost to the atmosphere.
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Hey, thats really good stuff! I think that would be a really awesome addition to gameplay.
Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
It's a love hate relationship for me. Sometimes you need your ships somewhere else so it is just easier to buy them off. However sometimes you are up against some pretty wealthy AI and they will spend thousands to make sure you have to deal with that fleet at just the wrong moment. The Pirate base is still worth taking for extra income but early on that is just not possible. So far it seems balanced quite well. I love the bullet hole in the console glass once they are removed  :CONGRAT: 
Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
Even on MP, I find that if you manage to send the first 1 or 2 pirates to the enemy, it gives you an enormous advantage, especially if the pirate fleet is large. The reason is that it basically forces the enemy to stop expanding during that time and allows you to take more planets. In addition to that, if they have multiple planets, you can attack one that the pirates are not attacking and run away as soon as he sends his fleet over (leaving their other planet at the pirate's mercy). You may see it as advantageous to get free exp, but I've found that I'd much rather not have free exp and force them to not expand.
Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
Nobody cares about the bloody AI. Play multiplayer. There may be bugs in it, but complaining about it serves little purpose when there's skilled human players everywhere.


Even on MP, I find that if you manage to send the first 1 or 2 pirates to the enemy, it gives you an enormous advantage, especially if the pirate fleet is large. The reason is that it basically forces the enemy to stop expanding during that time and allows you to take more planets. In addition to that, if they have multiple planets, you can attack one that the pirates are not attacking and run away as soon as he sends his fleet over (leaving their other planet at the pirate's mercy). You may see it as advantageous to get free exp, but I've found that I'd much rather not have free exp and force them to not expand.
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I just ignore them, let them take out my planet or whatever, then they go away. I can use the 5,000 credits I spend bountying on something more worthwhile.
Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
It would be REALLY nice if pirates actually had a goal and left after it was done. If it's 'get bounty', they should leave when the bounty is gone (or at least start to avoid serious combat as unprofitable). If it's 'disrupt trade to make money' they shouldn't hang around a system full of defence ships when there's no trade/resouce base. They should actually pay attention to who has what sort of fleet: going for the highest-bounty guy when you have NO CHANCE OF SURVIVAL is not very pirate-like. You should also be able to put a 'public safety' 'bounty' on pirates, to encourage those who aren't the target to attack them too for profit.

Basically I'd like them to be more 'pirates' than 'suicidal attack dogs'. Hey, actual preying on trade would be nice too. :)
Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top
I just ignore them, let them take out my planet or whatever, then they go away. I can use the 5,000 credits I spend bountying on something more worthwhile.
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like rebuilding a planet ;p
Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top

I just ignore them, let them take out my planet or whatever, then they go away. I can use the 5,000 credits I spend bountying on something more worthwhile.


like rebuilding a planet
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Well, if it's asteroids or whatever I don't care. If it's a fully upgraded ice or something, they'll usually go away before they bomb the planet into smithereens.
Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top
I don't know. Pirates seem ridiculously easy to manipulate, and against the AI (so far) it seems like there isn't much to worry about.

Tweaks, yeah I think those should be in order. Better AI regarding when to stay and when to run, but then you end up with a stockpile. Maybe end up with the ships scuttled at the pirate base after the raid is over.. who knows.

A more varied fleet would be nice. How the hell do they manage to get all that firepower for themselves when as far as my empire goes, it's cost is through the roof (even with access to sell/buy from the black market).

There has to be a way to keep the pirate population in check. Was there ever any interest to be able to reduce the threat level/severity of pirate attacks. I find myself frequently attempting to reduce the amount of active pirate ships to try and curb impending raids.
Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top
In a game vs AI I try to pick maps without pirates. The AI really has a tendency to wreck itself with the pirates and than not being able to attack properly. A much better thing regarding pirates would be that they so to speak rather harrass your trade, i.e. as long as the bounty is on you, they block your lanes and reduce general income instead of flying to a planet, causing chaos and running off again.
It would be smooth if by the size of the bribe the kind of attack would be distinguished.

For example:
0 - 1000 credits: Pirates can "occupy" phase lanes, slowing movement, damaging ships using them while in transfer and reducing the income, all in a light, but very annoying manner.
1000 - 2000 credits: Pirates attack tradeships and sometimes strike tradeports at undefended planets (not the stupid "I attack the tradeport with 75% of my forces letting myself get shredded by the defense" way).
2000 - 5000 crecits: Larger scale harrasment, attacking of defended planets, bombardments etc.
(now you spend rarely this much money in 1 bounty as you normally just capture the pirate port at this point but let's continue a bit)
5000-10k credits: you alter the Ammount of forces. 1k credits = e.g. 4 ships more to the standard raid, starting from 5k upwards, capping at 10k.
10k+ credits: For each 10k they attack another system independantly.


That would be my idea. Things would be pretty nice this way in multiplayer. And before the first wave of pirate raiders it might be an idea to have them e.g. on a 45 min CD before it hits so the AI isn't wrecking it's economy in the start with "I pirate you, you pirate me".
Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top
Isn't that a bit sad? Why have pirates in the game when all they do is a) cripple the AI and b) give your ships free Xp when you feel like it.That's why I suggested to give them their own game-dynamics.E.g. they should have their own credits-deposit. Their goal then is to gain more money by looting trade- and refinery ships, or collecing bounty, or both. The money they gain is then invested in more vessels so they can take on bigger targets.That way the pirates would have their very own strategy. E.g. they'd tend to make raids on the trade-ships that pass through the gravity well of an asteroid field because there are no defenses there, so they can loot 20 trade ships before making a run for it. They could also put the resources they got from destroyed refinery ships for offer on the black market.I think that would help a lot both with the overall gameplay and the atmosphere of the game, because a) the pirates will e.g. still raid your even if there is more bounty on another party when you didn't defend one of your gravity-wells at all because it's easier money for them and b) there is some sort of logics attached to pirates, so they look like a logical part of the game and not an assembly of script-events, which would be an immense boost to the atmosphere.
End of quote


In a game vs AI I try to pick maps without pirates. The AI really has a tendency to wreck itself with the pirates and than not being able to attack properly. A much better thing regarding pirates would be that they so to speak rather harrass your trade, i.e. as long as the bounty is on you, they block your lanes and reduce general income instead of flying to a planet, causing chaos and running off again.It would be smooth if by the size of the bribe the kind of attack would be distinguished. For example:0 - 1000 credits: Pirates can "occupy" phase lanes, slowing movement, damaging ships using them while in transfer and reducing the income, all in a light, but very annoying manner.1000 - 2000 credits: Pirates attack tradeships and sometimes strike tradeports at undefended planets (not the stupid "I attack the tradeport with 75% of my forces letting myself get shredded by the defense" way).2000 - 5000 crecits: Larger scale harrasment, attacking of defended planets, bombardments etc.(now you spend rarely this much money in 1 bounty as you normally just capture the pirate port at this point but let's continue a bit)5000-10k credits: you alter the Ammount of forces. 1k credits = e.g. 4 ships more to the standard raid, starting from 5k upwards, capping at 10k.10k+ credits: For each 10k they attack another system independantly.That would be my idea. Things would be pretty nice this way in multiplayer. And before the first wave of pirate raiders it might be an idea to have them e.g. on a 45 min CD before it hits so the AI isn't wrecking it's economy in the start with "I pirate you, you pirate me".
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I think both of these two solutions offer great ideas to my pirate thread problem. I still always win hiring them all the time. So if you developers are reading this, maybe take the two advices mentioned here and add it to the next patch.
Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top
Put me on the "pirates make beating the AI easy" petition, too.

The randomized attacks idea is good - it would force you to deal with them sometimes.

I like better the idea of turning them into another player entity, though. Allow them to take over planets and such, but give them reduced prices to ships, structures, technology (through the previously mentioned "plundering" mechanic, perhaps), and instead of an "expand" objective, make it more an "extreme fortify". Maybe give them a tactic that allows them to board vessels, kill the crew, and head off with a new capital ship?

It's cool to have them as a part of the game, but if you just make sure to have some savings when the time comes, and babysit the bidding war until the raid is launched, you'll never lose. Another idea - speed up the AI bidding, so that it becomes "who's willing to pay more" instead of "last bid wins".
Reply #47 from Sins Forums Top


thing is ... you couldn't "just as easily" build a harassment fleet yourself at that price. not for 2000 credits and not to mention it costs credits + resources to build attack ships. my last game on a 1000 cred bounty i won i spotted the pirate raid that was sent against the AI. i counted approx 12 ships. imagine 12 attack ships for 1000 creds that is crazy mathematics and imbalanced.
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And yet if you make your own ships, you can prioritize targets better, and can retreat when he warps in a fleet...
Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top
what game you guys playing? i've been sending the pirates after my enemies for a while now.....no noticable effect, i still get attacked by the same 5 cap ship fleets from one guy, 2 cap ship fleets from another, and now the other AI is goin after me too :p

Normal Difficulty btw. Anyone got an idea how i can break out of a two front war against 3 opponents? Pirates dont seem to be workin to great...their fleets are the smallest things i see.
Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top
In a game vs AI I try to pick maps without pirates. The AI really has a tendency to wreck itself with the pirates and than not being able to attack properly. A much better thing regarding pirates would be that they so to speak rather harrass your trade, i.e. as long as the bounty is on you, they block your lanes and reduce general income instead of flying to a planet, causing chaos and running off again.It would be smooth if by the size of the bribe the kind of attack would be distinguished. For example:0 - 1000 credits: Pirates can "occupy" phase lanes, slowing movement, damaging ships using them while in transfer and reducing the income, all in a light, but very annoying manner.1000 - 2000 credits: Pirates attack tradeships and sometimes strike tradeports at undefended planets (not the stupid "I attack the tradeport with 75% of my forces letting myself get shredded by the defense" way).2000 - 5000 crecits: Larger scale harrasment, attacking of defended planets, bombardments etc.(now you spend rarely this much money in 1 bounty as you normally just capture the pirate port at this point but let's continue a bit)5000-10k credits: you alter the Ammount of forces. 1k credits = e.g. 4 ships more to the standard raid, starting from 5k upwards, capping at 10k.10k+ credits: For each 10k they attack another system independantly.That would be my idea. Things would be pretty nice this way in multiplayer. And before the first wave of pirate raiders it might be an idea to have them e.g. on a 45 min CD before it hits so the AI isn't wrecking it's economy in the start with "I pirate you, you pirate me".
End of quote


How about this:

0-1k credits: Pirates occupy neutral/special grav-wells, fight militia forces if present, and attack passing trade ships.

1-2k credits: Pirates occupy neutral/special grav-wells, fight militias/rebels, attack passing trade ships, and make harassment attacks on refineries and trade ports with timed explosives on fast ships.

2-5k credits: Pirates launch major attack on enemy worlds where defense fleets are not present, place time-bombs on factories, labs, refineries, trade ports, etc., kill refinery/trade ships.

5-10k credits: Pirates place time-bombs on orbital defenses and launch a massive siege attack on 3 enemy worlds, along with the harassment forces as stated above. For every 1k credits, they bring 5 more time-bomb scouts.

>10k credits: For every 5k, they attack 1 more planet. If there are not enough planets in the system, they send multiple forces to key planets, but they cannot pull long-range or wormhole jumps.
Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top
I completely agree with the original poster of this thread. When there are pirates and I'm battling multiple AI's, I survive and commonly even make an ally. However, this does not guarantee a win on its own. If there are no pirates and I'm battling the AI's, then I get ganged up on every time and eventually get worn down so much that I lose. I don't particularly care to battle the pirates, but I do use them to make sure the AI is on its toes and to make it harder for it to gang up on me.

I haven't tried online yet so I don't know what sort of impact the pirates would have with other players.