We need a CHEATING AI.

from Sins Forums
Me and my 2 friends just stocked up on beer and munchies getting ready for a long weekend of Sins. I have played since January in the beta. Of my friends, one never played the game and the other played a few game the day before to get familiar with the game.

First game: 3v3 locked team Hard AI. Too easy, we beat them fairly fast and it was no trouble.

Second game, we figured 'what the heck'. 3v7 locked hard team in a Huge map. We won in 8 hours. My two friends were on a star system and i was on another. They had some trouble holding on and it was basically a stalemate on their side until i cleaned up my star system and came to their help. By then the game pretty much was won and went into mopping up status (btw we should be declared winner if we own 3/4 of the map to avoid those boring end game).

So we won at the HARDEST setting we could make with 1 veteran and 2 noobs? What is the point of playing now? My friends are just going to get better at the game if we play more. But since it's not even a challenge now, it will just be a cakewalk in later games. There is NO FUN in playing if you cannot lose!

We really really want to enjoy the game but cannot play with the current AI. Why can't we have a cheating AI? There is NOTHING WRONG with an AI that cheat. As long as we know what are the bonuses it's getting. Just like in Civ 4 the ONLY game we still play because it's still can be a challenge(team play vs AI on Emperor level)

I propose a Higher difficulty level for the AI with a sliding scale from 10-50% bonus in ship cost/fleet capacity/number of capital ship/fleet maintenance. That should make it a little bit more challenging and allow us to play the game. As it is, it's just no fun.

I dont' see why we cannot have a cheating AI for us gaming grognards. I understand, that you take pride on a good non-cheating AI. But the bottom line should be to make a fun game for us players. And it's not fun if we cannot lose.

So my main complain it the AI. But since we are at it. I would love to see an option to be declared winner if we own 3/4 of the map, as well as a way to speed up the game and/or more 4x stuff to do. As it is, we had too much time while playing. I mean we had time to alt tab to winamp and pick songs to listen, do beer run, sit around in the tech tree learning the game, browsing the web, and one even took a 30 mins nap without needing to pause the game!

Great game though. I just want to be able to enjoy it aka be challenged by it.
multiplayer
25,116 views 52 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
No offense, but shouldn't you be playing multiplayer then?
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
Play online
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
Play multiplayer. Not only will you get the short-term benefit of playing against real human beings, but you'll be helping to improve the AI as well (Stardock programs their AI to emulate common player strategies)
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
I was thinking the same thing as the OP. The AI is just too easy even on a huge map on hard, 8 AI are no match for 1 good player (admitadly not teamed up against).

Not sure I like the idea of cheating AI but it might be more interesting all the same.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
Not all of us have the time for multiplayer. I would love to give the AI an advantage because I can rule any 1v1v1v1 with 3 hard AI's with relative ease now.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Not all of us have the time for multiplayer. I would love to give the AI an advantage because I can rule any 1v1v1v1 with 3 hard AI's with relative ease now.
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It is rather hard to figure out people to plat agains on ICO because people are rarley on. I encourage you to jump into the IRC channel and talk to some of the people to get a game going. Try setting the AI onto different levels as well.

Make one a fortifer, one economics, one research, ect. I never liked a cheating AI. Who likes playing against someone whos ships are 5x stronger and build 5x faster?
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Play online or play against each other.. 1human and AI vs 1human and AI vs 1human and AI.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
Multiplayer against human opponent is one aspect of the game. But playing Coop with my friends against insane AI is what i prefer. We play on our own time. Can pause for food or beer run or watch a game on TV. It's relaxing, fun and free of stress.

It's a different aspect of the game. In MMO there are people who like PvP and some like PvE or you can like both. So telling me to play pvp instead of PvE is of no help. It's a DIFFERENT type of game. Each his own.

Especially on HUGE map how are you gonna find a reliable game? How are you going to make sure your opponent is going to sit thru an 8+ hours game and not quit on you? And the more people there is in the game the higher the likelyhood someone is gonna have a RL situation where they have to quit early. So even if you wanted to. You will not be able to play an EPIC game online against real opponent. But that wasn't the point anyway. I wanted EPIC PvE game, and the AI is too weak without cheating to provide me with that experience.

Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
problem with AI is its cat and mouse game very boring. Bring it online you have better playing experience.

What do I mean cat and mouse they run too much which make taking AI controled planet cake walk. The AIs don't even bother defend their planets when they lose enough its game over for them because they can't aford to replace lost ships. You can attack with your main fleet they'll run on the first sign your fleet enter the system you can easily take another one of their planet at the same time attacking with a small secondary fleet.

If the AI fleet actually fight both side can loose enough ships then it will not be easy to take over.

For the AI its like oh no it's the player's fleet run away run away give them what they came for run away. Hehe where is the challenge in a enemy who simply run away? The AIs needs to learn how to keep separate fleet in near by systems so they can reenforce the battle quickly istead of relying on single fleet that runs even on a about equal number. Some time I think they run even if they had more ships!

If the devels are too lazy to make a good AI let us mod it.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top

For the AI its like oh no it's the player's fleet run away run away give them what they came for run away. Hehe where is the challenge in a enemy who simply run away? The AIs needs to learn how to keep separate fleet in near by systems so they can reenforce the battle quickly istead of relying on single fleet that runs even on a about equal number. Some time I think they run even if they had more ships!

If the devels are too lazy to make a good AI let us mod it.
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Didn't the devs already say that they are trying to prove the a.i.?
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
All i'm asking is an option that should be fairly simple to implement. People who dont' like cheating AI can play as is. But for those like me, there is no hurt in having the option to play a cheating AI. It adds to the game without taking anything away from it.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
I also hope that the AI is improved, and perhaps that the option of a cheating AI would be implemented. Not everyone want's to play PvP multiplayer, personally I almost never play any multiplayer at all, except for the occational coop with friends.

It would however be possible for you and your friends to mod a race that you don't use to have lower cost ships or some other advantage. It's a bit tedious to edit all the files, but it could hold you over for the time being.

Personally I think the AI would be much more competitive if it stopped wasting so much resources on siege frigates. Siege frigate spam seems to me to be both annoying and an ineffective use of resources, which is a double-bad feature of the current AI.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
Civ4 AI cheat and it's a FUN GAME.
MOO on impossible against buggy 32k ships stack of death was fun too.
Moded Starcraft game where all the enemy units were 'hero' type unit with crazy stats was fun as well.

Yes, it can be fun to play against overwhelming odds. I understand that it's not everyone's cup of tea but it is for some of us.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
Pu me down for wanting an improved and cheating AI (since I contend that even if improved it will not be competitive with a real human in the long run). My work schedule dictates that I play games in fits and spurts which doesn't work well for MP (I would rather play against real humans), so nearly all of my games will be against the AI.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
You can always mod it in.

Or wait for somebody to make a more advanced AI mod.
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
A) The devs are trying to improve the AI
B) The devs have already commented on an (eventual) cheating AI -- more important things to do right now
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
It always intrigues me when people demand that a game cheats.....
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
All i'm asking is an option that should be fairly simple to implement. People who dont' like cheating AI can play as is. But for those like me, there is no hurt in having the option to play a cheating AI. It adds to the game without taking anything away from it.
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Im with you here mate, I have a great little LAN setup at my place and friends often come over and play games and stuff and we love playing Sin's for 5-10hour games but the problem is now we've all had alot of games its just far too easy.
A "Very Hard" and "Extreme" AI would be great to play against in huge battles over LAN, and im sure it'd be great to play online with some extreme AI's in there to mix it up a bit.
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
In the original Heroes of Might and Magic game (released in 1995), when you were trying to setup a new game, there were two different "dials" you could calibrate : one defined the computer player's level of artificial "intelligence" (what kryo would call the "amount of management routines available"), and the other defined the starting resource-bonuses you could assign to the comps. Some RTS games offer a user-defined resource "handicap" in the game setup.

I don't believe that it would be difficult, for the Ironclad coders, to offer that kind of supplementary game setup option : if you want, you give the comps starting bonuses (resources, buildings, ships, research items) and/or give them a recurring influx of bonuses (in Heroes of Might and Magic V, this recurrent cheating is in fact imposed through hardcoding).

As it is now, there is no informative transparency. I am trying to get the Ironclad or Stardock representatives to precisely spell out the differences between the "easy", "normal" and "hard" A.I. levels, but I have only received very general and vague replies -- except this one : they firmly declare that the comps do not receive bonus resources.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
You could make a 3 humans vs 4 CPUs game. Uneven teams would accomplish the "cheat" goal without altering game mechanics.
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top

As it is now, there is no informative transparency. I am trying to get the Ironclad or Stardock representatives to precisely spell out the differences between the "easy", "normal" and "hard" A.I. levels, but I have only received very general and vague replies -- except this one : they firmly declare that the comps do not receive bonus resources.
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Sometimes, things don't lend themselves to a quick and easy description. Try to spell out the differences between the 1040 and 1040A tax forms in a couple of paragraphs.
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
I'm not asking for sophisticated details about the complex A.I.-program code, I'm asking for some basic info such as :

* In what measure does the "normal" A.I. build less than the "hard" A.I. ?
* In what measure does the "hard" A.I. see more of the map than the "normal" A.I. ?
* In what measure does the "hard" A.I. research more than the "normal" A.I. ?

That kind of info can be spelt out in quick and easy descriptions : many game producers publish that type of info (in the manual, or in a readme file, or on their website, or in a strategy guide).

I'm ready to pay for a strategy guide to learn that information.

Since when does asking precise questions represent a naive delusion ?

Reminds me of certain political leaders : "We can't give you people quick and easy answers, because those are complex problems best left to experts. Trust us. We have access to classified data you haven't read."

I'm starting to believe that the descriptions of the three A.I. levels of difficulty are classified, top-secret, compartmentalized, code-word protected IC/SD info.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
I'm not asking for sophisticated details about the complex A.I.-program code, I'm asking for some basic info such as :

* In what measure does the "normal" A.I. build less than the "hard" A.I. ?
* In what measure does the "hard" A.I. see more of the map than the "normal" A.I. ?
* In what measure does the "hard" A.I. research more than the "normal" A.I. ?

That kind of info can be spelt out in quick and easy descriptions : many game producers publish that type of info (in the manual, or in a readme file, or on their website, or in a strategy guide).
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And what if there are dozens or hundreds more parameters like those? And since AI enhancement is one of their top priorities, should they spend time keeping the list up to date? I'd rather they stuck to coding.



I'm ready to pay for a strategy guide to learn that information.
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I'm not.


Since when does asking precise questions represent a naive delusion ?
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No, your naive delusion is in assuming that there's a simple answer to your question, and that refusal to come up with a quick, simple answer (on a weekend, no less), represents a delaying tactic and a commitment to secrecy.


Reminds me of certain political leaders : "We can't give you people quick and easy answers, because those are complex problems best left to experts. Trust us. We have access to classified data you haven't read."
End of quote


Totally uncalled for.
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
Yah the AI is getting pretty boring with its fleeing and not calculating their incomming allies to help. Even worse when playing 2 hard locked AI's as advent with a carrier spam I dont think i lost more then 3 drone host that complete game. Talk about weak AI :( IT NEEDS TO STAND and wait/call for reinforcements! Would make a completly different game.

Cheating AI is cool with me at least you will loose some ships :)
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
Make a huge map thats imbalanced to you: ie less planets & less resources for you two. One access in & out of your system. Load it up up 7 AI (lock them to same team) vs you two. If that still seems simple make all AI players Advent & Tec. Superb shield strength & repairs. have fun with that :P. That'd be very interesting at least. Any takers? :P