Why is PQ13 + soil + hab = PQ15 ?

If you can buy soil + hab quick, what is the downside?
1,060 views 22 replies
Reply #1 Top
It's 15 because 20% of 13 is 2.6, and 13+2.6= 15.6, rounded to 15 ..
No downside AFAIK :)

~SDC~
Reply #2 Top
There is no real downside to building them, of course. They're the first things I do on every planet.

If you're referring to leasing them is much more expensive and crimps your budget in the future. It's also not necessary to immediately upgrade the planet quality. Typically, your new colonized planet won't have a population large enough for one or two points of PQ to make a significant difference.
Reply #3 Top
I do both at once cause under 15, no production (or pop growth?). But some have posted that this is always a bad idea without stating why. Perhaps cause the planet never will have income greater than expenses or something?
Reply #4 Top
Just to be clear, some posts have posited the idea that colonizing PQ13 assuming that hab = soil will bring it to PQ15 is a strategic mistake. I was wondering why.
Reply #5 Top
Dunno. Always works for me. Pick a planet quality race trait and class 12 worlds turn out nicely while still in the early game.
Reply #6 Top
I take on class 12 and 13 worlds all the time and upgrade them quite nicely to class 15. By mid-game they are up to 17's and 18's. I'll take it!
Reply #7 Top
Yup.. I actually tend to wait a little bit though. Especially if using the ol' Shazam! method. :D

With +15%, I go nab planets.. military cranked. Then crank research for a short period, and get banking and medical. Then I crank social, and go into deficit spending, getting aphrodesiac. I can get one pretty quick like this. While I have social cranked, I build all my soil and habitat upgrades.. only takes from 2 to 3 turns for each, tops. Then I build banks. By the time the aphrodesiac is done, I've upgraded all my planets, so even class 11.. 12 planets are nice and fertile. Then I even things out, and crank out colony ships once again.

The Shazam +15 PC setting while spendy at 9 points, is actually *very* nice. You can populate a LOT of systems, very quickly. Once that happens your economy really starts moving quickly. Plus my people really really like me. LOL


fleabitfox
Reply #8 Top
As it was explained to me elsewhere, PQ15 is the base assuming you immediately or rapidly do hab + soil for 17. It is a long-term thing such that less than ~PQ18 is a prob in the later game when pops are large.
Reply #9 Top
PQ16-PQ18 Planets in the end game SUCK. Even with an approval rating north of 80% and 90% of my planets at 100% morale, the PQ16 planets are on the verge of revolt. Even the spacing the population strategy barely works because you have to take it all the way to 50 million people before it has an effect.

So colonizing PQ13-14 as a strategy for expanding your empire's size and wealth is universally a bad idea.

BUT: There are some VERY valid reasons for SELECTIVELY taking PQ13-14 planets.

1st) Range extenders.

2nd) Star Base support: Wha,wha what? Starbases support planets, not the other way around...BUT a planet in a sector with a resouce starbase can make all the difference to who controls the sector. There's nothing worse than having the AI demanding you turn over your maxed out Econ Starbase because its in their sector. A nearby planet...even just a small one can keep that from happening.

3rd) Speed bump. The AI does a better job than most AIs off attacking your rear areas...but its still prone to head for the closest enemy thing it can get to. I'd rather have that closest thing be a PQ13 bumped to a 15 planet than a PQ 20. Since PQ 15 worlds are NEVER going to produce jack shit for money anyway, frontier worlds like this make ideal places to build planetarty defence bases and such. VERY effective at blunting a rush by the Drengin Armada...and if you lose it...so what.

4th) A GREAT way to go for a cultureal win is to infiltrate enemey space with colonies. The AI will never take these worlds, so even later in the game you can grab them. Having a couple planets (even low influence stuff) inside the sector seems to have a huge impact on changing the sector to your color and beginning the conversion process. As a bonus...while the AI on higher difficulties will get annoyed if you start building starbases in their sector, I've never had them complain about a colony. They will complain about military buildup...especially if you're parking a huge fleet inside their sector...but seem to be much more tolerant of forces orbiting one of your own stars.


So YES, colonizing P13-14 planets can be a good thing, if you do it selectively and for a specific purpose. But as a standard strategy of getting every planet you can including all the 13 & 14s you can reach...no...you'll cripple your economy forever.
Reply #10 Top
I guess I don't understand how a PQ13 upgraded to PQ15 can hurt your economy. But if it's true, then another valid reason for settling PQ13's is to make them in AI sectors. Then, let the AI's natural cultural influence take it away from you and saddle IT with a poor planet.
Reply #11 Top
Hmmm. I'm a little confused too. Your economy is an aggregate, not an average. How can adding a PQ 15 world ever HURT your economy? It will produce a world that is well behind your PQ 20 planets, true, but I simply don't understand while it will be a drawback... maybe pre-nerf when morale was still a huge issue?

At that point you would have to spend more money to improve morale. That's my only possible guess.
Reply #12 Top
"How can adding a PQ 15 world ever HURT your economy?"

By leeching your limited production funds away from your core worlds. Assuming you can't afford to set government spending to 100% (which is a critical caveat: if you CAN afford that spending rate, there's no downside to low-quality planets), you are by definition not using your full productive potential on your core worlds. Since production spending is set at the imperial level (i.e., you can't "shut off" funding to specific, low-quality planets), your smaller worlds are constantly using up money that, if you didn't have those worlds, could be directed to the planets that matter, better using their productive potential. Every low-quality/low-pop world that you colonize dilutes your revenue stream, and because they are low-pop, they are very unlikely to earn you enough additional income to counterbalance this dilution.

The second caveat to this is that if Stardock does something about the "wasted resources" issue, all the theory regarding this will have to be rethought, as it may very well become possible to shut off production on these worlds, removing the revenue drain that they currently represent.

Make sense? If it does, great. If it doesn't, it was one of the other GGers, Iskabis, that explained the concept to me, so blame him. ;)

- Ash

~SDC~
Reply #14 Top
That was my thought also, Stregone, but until we get those (or something else like them), we have to deal with the way it works.

- Ash

~SDC~
Reply #15 Top
Valamir: I have to disagree. Set planet inhabitability to it's minimum, play on a huge or gigantic map, and take the +15% PQ bonus. You'll find that even on Challenging, (all AI set to bright), it's almost a cakewalk because of your economy, driven by a large number of Class 15-18 planets that the AI passed over. I own half of a huge galaxy without having to fight or culturally asimilate anything because of this.

It might be different on smaller maps, and I can't imagine that it wouldn't be different if the inhabitability setting is high rather than low.

For the record, even when I played with normal settings, I never had serious morale problems on Class 15-18 planets unless I was having empire-wide morale problems.
Reply #16 Top
So, how are you disagreeing Popup?
First you're talking about a strategy that is a very unique set of circumstances (takinging the 15% PQ bonus and setting low planet inhabitablity. I can't imagine how such a game is fun since you've essentially stacked the deck completely in your favor.

Second, your strategy is exactly what I said to do. By infiltrating enemy space with lots of little planets you wind up winning the cultureal battle. You just set the game settings to make the AI extra vulnerable to this.

But again you've rigged the game so that the AI has hardly any planets worth colonizeing while you have a bunch...doesn't sound like a very fun scenario to me, but YMMV.

Morale is not the key issue. Money is. No matter how many upgrades you buy on the smaller planets they'll never build things fast enough to matter...so maintenance on those upgrades is a waste. If you try it you just wind up with a bunch of planets that are spending more then they're generating.

If you leave the planets unupgraded, you winde up spending huge portions of your global economy on planets that aren't building anything, thereby diluting the production capability of your main worlds.

BUT INDIVIDUAL PLANET SPENDING SLIDERS ARE NOT THE ANSWER. In fact I think this is a BAD idea. Why...because you have people on a planet that are relying on you to make their standard of living acceptable...in game terms this means giving them work (manufacturing) things to buy (a lively and stable economy) and things to do (entertainment). If you don't build these facilities directly on the planets in question, that you basically have a whole bunch of unemployed people living in poverty...

So...the money that gets "wasted" by being divided among these planets can be assumed to represent transfer payments in the form of welfare and other subsidies to support a population that lack the infrastructure to support themselves.

At any rate, by the end game of a large map, even a fully tricked out 16 planet takes 50 turns to build a warship that a 26PQ planet can build in 7. Pretty useless...except for the specific strategies I outlined above.
Reply #17 Top
A wise man once said cant argue with resualts. Resualts here being its not frikin worth it!! Dont try to understand why, you'll give yourself a headache.
Reply #18 Top
Funny, I have lots of productive former 13/14 planets in all the games I've played (large map). In fact, in my home sector there was one system with two 14 planets I have avoided. I just put a colony on one of them. Was I truely amazed at it's productivity since I have two fully decked out starbases and working on a thrid in that sector.

Also did the same thing with a 13 size planet 2 secoros away on the border with the Torians. I needed to get influence going there so I colonized it. I got it up to a 16 now and it's not losing money. Build a starbase there mainly for future culture improvements but upgraded a few economy and production modules. That planet became pretty productive.

So I would agree that you should colonize just any old 13/14 planet. But these little guys can be real key and can be very productive. They won't take away from the productivity of your size 20+ planets so long as it's making enough income to pay for itself. :)
Reply #19 Top
"BUT INDIVIDUAL PLANET SPENDING SLIDERS ARE NOT THE ANSWER. In fact I think this is a BAD idea. Why...because you have people on a planet that are relying on you to make their standard of living acceptable...in game terms this means giving them work (manufacturing) things to buy (a lively and stable economy) and things to do (entertainment). If you don't build these facilities directly on the planets in question, that you basically have a whole bunch of unemployed people living in poverty..."

So in galciv the government employs everyone, and no one makes or buys consumer goods? Last I checked in the US Walmart was the largest employer in the country, not the federal government. Most jobs in the world have nothing to do with building warships or 'social projects' by the government. Its almost all just consumer goods; food, clothes, TVs, cars, computers, etc.

~SDC~
Reply #20 Top
Actually, Valamir, it isn't specific to that setup, just benefits that setup the most. Like I said, I found that with those settings, the deck was stacked so far in my favor that it was too easy, so now that I'm used to keeping up with the AI expansion efforts, I've got the habitability turned back to the default setting. In fact, I may have maxed it out on my current game to see how different it could be.

I'm disagreeing because I don't see any of the problems that you discuss in your first paragraph (in post #9). I don't have morale problems on my planets, and I don't build morale boosters on my low-end planets. They don't quite pay for themselves, but my big planets don't either, so that's not really an issue. This may have to do with the fact that I puruse morale solutions by tech/trade goods rather than building social projects.

This also isn't a culture-push strategy. In both my previous and current game, I've got a lead in culture, but it's my economy that is towering over the other civs. In fact, in my previous game, I think I only converted 3 planets in a Huge galaxy. It was still a cultural win, oddly enough. The game before that was an Alliance victory where I wasn't even close to a cultural victory.

One thing I'm pretty sure that we'll both agree on is that if you have a planet with a class of less than 15, your very first priority, even before manufacturing center, is to get it up to 15. Oh, and don't waste money by building social projects with maintenance fees on low-end planets. They cost the same and give less benefit (absolute, not relative) than the same thing on a larger planet, hence less cost-effective. In fact, there's only three social projects with maintenance fees that I'll usually build on a planet with a class less than 20: Manufacturing Center, Stock Exchange, and Anti-Matter power plant. Each of them costs 1BC/turn and benefits at least one stat by 25%. I'm much more likely to boost production with a starbase, since it has no maintenance costs associated with it, and can benefit more than one planet. I will admit that it's probably more expensive in terms of manufacturing, though.

In support of your other points in that post:

1) Yes, especially when you're playing with less common habitability settings, you will need them to get to something.

2) I figured out fast that a starbase supports a planet, but a planet supports a starbase, for one other reason you didn't mention. A nearby planet gives you a place to park starships that can pop out and help defend the starbase, then retreat to the planet to repair faster. I don't like stacking the defending ships with the starbase because the ships normally get attacked before the starbase, and in most cases, the starbase is better capable of taking care of itself than the ships are.

3) Quite true, especially if the reason the planet is PQ 15 is because of a +15% civ talent. AI takes the planet, the planet immediately drops to 13 and posts an angry face. I've never had an AI not loose steam very fast when on the offensive against a bunch of planets like that :)

4) Cultural infiltration: While I agree with this, it's probably the weakest point, because the small planets don't have the influence the larger planets do, and if you're not careful and aren't backing up the planets with culture SBs, you can loose the planets due to culture.
Reply #21 Top
Streg...the game does not model private enterprise. Who builds the Manufacturing Center...you the player. Who builds the Banking Center...you the player. Who builds the Entertainment Center...you the player.

Now one could hold an interesting discussion, about whether this is You the Player as Emperor of Terra building government projects, or whether this is You the Player as representative of private enterprise building these projects after getting permits from You the Player as Emperor.

Interesting...but ultimately irrelevant. If you the player do not build a Manufacturing Center (wearing whatever hat) one does not get built. There is no WalMart or private enterprise that comes into the system and builds one for you. The planets economic, research, and production output remain entirely unchanged (except for population modifiers) unless you the player build something there.

If you don't, then they don't exist. There are no jobs, there are no laboratories, there are no "TV Stations", nothing. So how do 5 billion people survive on a planet that has virtually no infrastructure outside of housing and food production (which are not modeled in the game at all and so can only be assumed to be present in sufficient quantitities)...government largesse.

Reply #22 Top
I know it doesn't model private enterprise, my point is that it is absurd to think that billions of people rely on you to give them every single little thing they need. Manufacturing centers and such are just abstract things. I think of them as pumping money into defense contractors to help them build stuff faster, because they only help you produce military ships; not cars, airliners, tvs and mp3 players.

~SDC~