Dreadnoughts too good?

Does anyone else find that dreadnoughts are a little too good. Low price, good HP, good defence?

Perhaps if the dreadnought had a 5 or a 6 for defence they would not be the end all be-all of space combat.

As it is, they outclass battleships by such a large amount that the 1st person to get them has a huge advantage.
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Reply #1 Top
They are meant to out class battleships though :)

Same as the Ranger and Phoenix outclass Dreadnaughts
The Avatar outclasses the Ranger and Phoenix
The Overlord outclasses the Avatar
The Excalibur outclasses everything.

I have played a fair few games and find them to be nicely balanced.
Reply #2 Top
Yeah, I was very surprised to see they were cheaper than battleships.

It seems that there are a few very distinct 'eras' for combat.
Starfighter/corvette/defender era.
Frigate/Battelcruiser/Battleaxe/Battlehammer era.
Battleship/Dreadnaught era.

I guess there's likely a 4th era, but I haven't gotten far enough in tech to see it.

By the time the Dreadnaught era arises, the ships from previous eras aren't very useful. Yes, Corvettes and frigates make very good raiders... but unfortunately, it's a strictly human advantage as the AI doesn't look at it like that.. it'll gladly throw it's early era ships against my Dreads and the only result is to give my ships experience. It also means if you happen to be the first person to reach a new era and exploit the new designs, you get a significant advantage over your opponents. This problem is compounded by the bonus% over time. A fighter in the third era might have a 6/3 attack/defense (say a +200% bonus).. but a battleship gets the same tripling effect to IT'S base stats.

I think there's two possible solutions...

The first is likely the easiest - change or add designs to make progression more linear and to lessen the size of the 'power jumps' of ship designs. This would make it more likely that the suicide attacks made by the computer against my Dreads will have some sort of effect. Starfighters and corvettes might still do nothing, but a frigate might do a bit of damage before dying, perhaps 5 'light cruisers'(as an example of a new design) may even manage to kill one.

The second is a lot more labor intensive (for Frogboy that is, not for me :D ) - that's to recode the combat AI. Make the computer realize which attacks are futile.. make it start avoiding my Dreadnaughts with it's corvettes and frigates and using them on my transports and freighters. (it also needs to be coded to protect it's own transports).

The AI could also benefit from targetting priorities.. I had an enemy battleship chase one of my sensor drones for 5 turns until I got my own battleship in the area and killed the enemy. It was too slow to catch it, and not bright enough to realize it couldn't catch it.. and it's just a sensor drone. If the AI had targetting priorities, it should try and direct it's ships against targets it's own size or 1-2 classes smaller within say 3 turns movement (and sensor range of one of it's units). The add a secondary function where it will take an soft kill (like a sensor drone) if it can reach the target this turn, and no primary targets are in range.

Right now though, I'm glad the AI isn't that smart.. I've just finally figured out how to match the computer's early game expansion. I'm going to win a painful difficulty game for the first time because I matched it's expansion.. and because I managed to play my enemies against one another. A smart combat AI would have screwed me this game...

But it won't be long before I'll be looking for a stronger military challenge.
Reply #3 Top
there seems to be a 4th era, when everybody has rangers and above. Then you have to watch out, cause the a.i's ships can really put you in a world of hurt :)


sensor drones do reduce the fog of war effect, and going after them does make some sense.

and on gigantic maps you are very likely to meet the more advanced ships before you can win.

have fun playing

the cat



~SDC~
Reply #4 Top
I agree that killing sensor drones makes sense, but what doesn't make sense is using a battleship to do it... it's overkill and, with a top speed of 5, it couldn't catch my sensor drone who's speed was 7.
Reply #5 Top
i totally agree regarding the dreadnought.

a dreadnought will rip a phoenix or battleship to shreds, it's about evenly matched with a ranger ( but costs much less to build ) and it's slightly worse than an avatar, but again costs much, much less. really there's no point in building anything else until you hit overlords.

and yes, the military AI isn't too bright, but i'm sure brad will fix it up a bit.

cheers

h
Reply #6 Top
Agree that the dreads are a little too good. I think they should be better than battleships by a fair margin, no problem in that department. But they are better than Rangers when you consider what you get for the price. That needs to change I think. Phoenixes are not that great either, I never build them.

olaf

Reply #7 Top
Two comments:
1) I think Rangers should compare more favorably with Dreadnaughts. By the time you get Rangers, there aren't many anomalies left on the map and so the "exploration" ability isn't all that useful (definately not useful enough to justify the difference in price). Also, the extra speed a Ranger gets is kind of nice but by the time you have Rangers, Hyperdrive is common and so the extra bit of speed isn't vital (doesn't justify the difference in cost). I'd like to either see Rangers be cheaper (similar cost to dreadnaughts) or have significantly more hit points so that it's possible to gain an advantage in exchange for all the research necissary to get access to Rangers.

2) I don't understand the point of the Phoenix. Now I will admit that I've never built one, but from looking at the Phoenix's statistics it's not clear why I'd ever want to. The Phoenix is about half the cost of a Dreadnaught and half the maintainence, but it has a fifth of the hit points, no defense and a weaker attack rating. Since it's necissary to acquire Dreadnaughts before Phoenixes, I just can't see what role the Phoenix is supposed to play (it's not even faster than a Dreadnaught). The comat simulator shows that the Phoenix can be expected to beat a Defender or a Battle Cruiser, but it would take 3 Phoenixes to beat a single Battle Axe or a Frigate and 4, 5 or 6 Phoenixes to beat a Combat Transport, Battle Hammer or Battleship. (Respectively)

- Matt Lepinski :->

~SDC~
Reply #8 Top
The problem, in my mind is that they outclass battleships by far more than avatars outclass them, which seems wrong considering how close they are techologically to battleships vs. how far avatars are from DNs.

Perhaps a little less defence and a little less hp?