And into the debacle i go .

"Yes there is a difference, however, i wouldn't call it free press when people expressing views that are at odds with the main opinion gets fired when doing so or their privilages of visiting the pressroom gets withdrawn making their jobs impossible. One might even argue that this kind of control over the press is even more dangerous as the public thinks its getting free press thus making the propagande even more effective."

No, there's a difference between what Peter Arnett did and what the opposing viewpoit does. Arnett basically went up to Saddam and congratulated him, syaing we failed in our objective. That is treason IMO.

"One of the great ironies of modern civilisation is it not. Everybody knows how we could reach utopia but our suspision and greed makes us wary of trying. And in movies and stories making money for nothing is glorified while hard work is for succers. Then when people listen to the messages we blame them for being lazy and no good ."

Agreed, 100%. Which i9s why I think socialism won't work for a long time.


"I believe it was the US that provided the majority of saddams weapons so i think you should be very careful when putting moral blame on other coutries. Lets not forget the idolized Reagon administration. These humanitarian people vetoed a UN resolution comdemning saddam for using gas on the kurds. I guess it was ok to gas children when your friends with the US right ?"

I wouldn't call us friends. It was a completely different situation at the time. Iran was backed by russia, so we backed the Iraqi's. Christ how many times did that happen during the cold war? And no, the majority of Saddam's weapons came from who I said they did because we pounded the shit out of them in the first war. Any weapons we gave them would have been long gone. BUt I'm not there so I can't say for certain


"UN is a cham because of coutries like the US ( and france for that matter ). There countries refuse any power that can hurt their selfish policies."

I'll say this again, the Un is a Sham because of corruption. Look at the oil for food program if you need proof.


"Damn, so i have been living in a communist country for 27 years without knowing ( sweden ). Time to bring out the kichen knife for some old time revolution ."

Yep, sucks doesn't it


"Why do you automatically assume this? Countries with high social welfare have fewer criminals per capita and happier people. Dont you understand that egoism create greed and hate while generosity does the opposite ? Does homeless poeple make other feel better about themselves ? Can't you part with that newly bought digital camera is somebody has a better life worth living ? I have a hard time understanding this kind of outlook on the world."

Call it life experience. Mayb eit's different in Sweden, but where I live, I've seen what I said first hand. Welfare does nothing but give people an excuse to do nothing(I'm refering to our currrent welfare policies, the us's). I don't waste my money on stupid things like digital cameras.

"I really could continue answering your points one by one but i think it's time for me to collect my socialwelfare chech so i can buy my new porsch now .
"

Don't stop on account of me man. I love hearing from an opposing viewpoibnt. SOrry some of my answers sucked, bbut I'm late for work

Later

~SDC~

Okay, now I failed my resistance check.

Wow, Verenti has a very, um, er, interesting view of the U.S. and people of conservative beliefs. It's nice that he wants "extreme" conservatives dead. Where does he draw the line on which ones are extreme so we can start sending them to the death camps? Really, this is the sense of community and fairness about which he speaks. I feel the world would clearly be a much better place with tolerant enlightened thinkers such as Mr. Verenti. Of course, there's nothing extreme about wishing people were dead that have different beliefs than you do.

It's nice that we live in the time of the internet where people can show you just how misguided and biased their beliefs are.

Normally, I try to stay away from directing my comments at the person as opposed to addressing the issue, but I find Verenti's remarks so offensive and off-base, that as I said, I failed my skill check.

As the title implies, "I find this (more) than a tad disturbing".

Frogboy, just how far can we go on these boards? Is this the sense of community we are striving for in GalCiv?

~SDC~

Socialism does not work and has never worked. Show me an example. People who favor socialism are typically people who want a free ride through life, and there are a lot of those in America and the world. You work for what you want. There is no substitute for honest and hard work. If you are unwilling to do that then you should not expect others to support you. Socialism not only does not work, it is also sick.

And Verenti is an extreme leftist, conspirany theorist kook.

That is 'conspiracy'.

Travis, siocialists are usually the people who do the hard work.

Travis, when you say "socialism" what do you mean?

Try to maintain a distinction between "socialism," "communism," "socialist democracies," etc.

Anyway, yeah, Verenti's comment about wanting extreme conservatives dead was, er, extreme. So, wanting people dead is okay, but disseminating information is evil.

~SDC~

I to like to have a nice debate as long as its civilized .

"No, there's a difference between what Peter Arnett did and what the opposing viewpoit does. Arnett basically went up to Saddam and congratulated him, syaing we failed in our objective. That is treason IMO."

I have seen this interview and he does no such thing, what he did was pointing out something that was obvious to all parties involved at the time. But let us not get stuck at a single person, how about the latest casualty :
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/30394.html

How about all the people that got fired because they were expressing reserved opinions after 9/11 ? How about how your closest ally's state owned media BBC commented the US iraq reporting of Fox and other network as mixing journalism with patritism ?

"Agreed, 100%. Which i9s why I think socialism won't work for a long time."

I think it might be possible if you get people that are idialists together, i doubt that it might work on a bigger scale in our current sociatily unfortunately.

"I wouldn't call us friends. It was a completely different situation at the time. Iran was backed by russia,"

Let me see if i understood you correcly, what you are saying that in certain situation, all means are allowed in order to reach a goal ? Ie: Accepting the killing of women and children and then vetoing a resolution comdemning this ? In this case i'm afraid i will have a difficult time debating things of moral with you since you dont seem to have any moral absolutes. But i would like to point out that you have foregone all rights to blame others more moral lacking ie your previous points about france.

"And no, the majority of Saddam's weapons came from who "

From 88-89 and forward the majority of arm sales to iraq was from the us. ( atlest to a documentary a saw ),

"I'll say this again, the Un is a Sham because of corruption."

Im not sure what you mean by this. If your pointing at corruption due to the poitical hagling of its member nations then i agree with you. Ofcourse the US is one of the worst haglers.

"Yep, sucks doesn't it "

LoL, now that a bit cheap shot down you think .

"Call it life experience. Mayb eit's different in Sweden, but where I live, I've seen what I said first hand. "

First hand as in know people that are abusing the system or have heard from friends what are we talking about. And for that matter, dont you think its a bit prejudice to judge the entire system by a few people you know ?

"I don't waste my money on stupid things like digital cameras."

The point that your trying to avoid is ofcourse whether you are willing to part with luxery so that someone what is not as lucky as you might have a resonable life to live ? I would guess no though from your previous answers .

I get the feeling that a lot of americal culture has the "look after number one and nobody else" feeling to it. I might be wrong since i do not live there but these are atleast the message i get here from the "cultural influence". And i believe that is the opposite of that our societies need in order to be happier places to live.

"Wow, Verenti has a very, um, er, interesting view of the U.S. and people of conservative beliefs."

That i believe was said in joking way not to be taken seriously. Reread all his comments and i think you'll come to the same conclusion.

"Socialism does not work and has never worked. Show me an example."

How about scandinavia and at occasions northern europe depending on the current government ( notice year not talking about communism here ).

"People who favor socialism are typically people who want a free ride through life,"

I really really love it when people throw this in my face. Here's a newsbit for you mate, im a convinced socialist, yep, so i'm looking for a free ride right ?!?
Jee, i wonder when it's coming, i have been waiting here while working at this .com firm for more money than 2 nurses get a month. But then again, i'm probably just a freeloader in discuise right ? Just waiting to cash in those uninployment checks. Or perhaps you have no idea of what your talking about.

/ Falaffel

I don't necesarrily mean the 'socialists' themselves, sorry for the perhaps bad choice of words, but many of the ones who end up supported by their little programs getting a free ride. I don't believe in free rides for anyone. If everyone in society were a hard worker or at least tried their best the world would be better for it and these things might have validity, but that is not reality. There are too many freeloaders willing to leech off the rest of society. I don't mind helping those who are trying their hardest and come up short, but I am not going to help those who refuse to help themselves.

Fal, not talking about you or everyone who subscribes to the invalidity that is socialism, just many of your beneficiaries.

That is, Fal, freeloaders love you lot, and you know why.

Travis, are you libertarian? That's not a one-line snipe, by the way. Just asking to put your comments in better context for myself.

~SDC~

I think that people in the US should be aware of the quality of their media. You only get to see what your government has agreed with the media you should see

Example: during this last war in IRAQ on a certain day all European news programs had the following four major items:
- The (accidental) killing of two journalists by American fire.
-The crisis situation in IRAQi hospitals where due to lack of staff equipment, bandages and electricity many people were dying in the corridors who might have been saved.
-The attack on a restaurant where Saddam was thought to be killing 11 or 17 innocent civilians.
-The progress the US and British armies were making.

The BBC Worldservice broadcasted the prime time NBC or ABC news (I don't recall which) and and apart from the military progress they only talked about the attack on Saddam without mentioning the civilians killed. No mention either of the journalist being called or the terrible situation in the hospitals.

I myself work for one of the largest American news agencies. I am in no way anti American. I am only saying that if you really want to know what is going on in the world you shouldn't rely exclusively on American media.

Well, actually I am an Anarchist, but I know that is not a valid 'system' to go by because the of the size of the world population.

As for my true leaning, I took a couple of political compass tests and one put me just left of center (probably based on my abortion views) which means I am a moderate basically. In another test, it defined me as Libertarian. I do not know how valid these tests are, but there you have it. I like change if it is for the better, but I like to err on the side of caution (conservativism).

Anyway, Libertarians are really just conservatives who like their drugs and loose women.

LOL

Carry on, brothers. I usually don't engage in political debate and I think this is getting carried away. I'd rather get back to discussing GalCiv.

Peace.

The problems is Trevis, that i think your so cought in the mindset that nobody should get a free ride on your back that you cant see the obvious benefits of a different kind of society.

Yes you do have some freeloaders, but instead of due to these few persons destroy the entire social net that is at the end constructed you protect YOU, you can easily remove the freeloaders buy requiring some sort of service for the payments. Then you have guarantied that nobody sleeps on the street if they dont want to and at the same time removed the freeloader problem.

Wouldn't you like a society where you know that everybody will help you should you fall instead of being afraid they will kick you while your down ?
It is an unreachable utopia as long as everybody thinks it is.

/Falaffel

First, I am not caught up in any partoicular mindset. I gave you my opinion. If you agree fine. If you don't fine. I don't politic and really do not even follow it. For the most part I don't care if the rest of you bicker and argue and fight all day long over issues, just stay away from me and leave me out of it. I am not trying to force my views on others or reform the world.

I certainly don't agree with people kicking others while they are down, but it should be a free choice whether they help me or not. If they do then they are a good person with a kind heart and if not then so be it. I have never begged for help in my life and never will. That is not to say I have never needed or asked for help, but I hold higher expectations for myself and my personal group of relations.

And, yes, I do agree that if the freeloaders can be removed then some social programs would have merit. I am all for charity for the truly needy, those who are trying their hardest. But again, it should be my free choice to donate to or help these people, I should not be taxed for it.

Many of us in the world have similar ideals of a free and peaceful society free of need and poverty, but at some point reality kicks in once you leave the meeting table. The real world is not ideal, it is full of elements of hate, greed, and laziness.

In any case, as I said, let's get back to discussing GalCiv!

Travis, thanks. I simply didn't want to make any assumptions, but your comments about welfare reminded me strongly of the libertarian line.

(wasn't looking for an argument, tho, just context)

~SDC~

Zaophod- and what country's media do you say is perfect? yours? Tell me a country where the media is BETTER and where absolutely everything is reported without govt concerns? There is no time limit on this question so go ahead and think for a while. Oh, and no bullshit. Thanks

The lemming, right wing mentality here is deeply disturbing. Greed and warmongering will be the downfall of America.

~SDC~

Actually, I'm more disturbed at the idea that "criticism of the government" = "not patriotic, so move yourself the Hell to Canada."

~SDC~

Some thoughts after reading through the last few comments (haven't dug through anything more than the last page yet )

The biggest reason socalism doesn't work is because of scaling problems and problems people have relating to each other. Farming towns in America a century or so ago were very socialist in some senses, if one member of the community was hit by hard times other members of the community would help them out.

Unfortunatly the idea doesn't expand well. People can kind of relate with a larger group if they see an obvious connection, take unions for example. However most people don't seem to have the capability to expand that sense of relationship to larger groups such as a country or the world.

Very quickly greed and lack of empathy overpowers any feeling of relationship. People don't care about other members of a much larger group, whether that lack of caring is in the form of the rich not caring if the poor starve to death, or those on welfare not caring about the people who worked to give them that money.

The reason i tend towards socialism/communism is empathy for my fellow humans, and enlightened self intrest. I've currently got a great job and make a ton of money, but for all i know that could change in year or two for reasons i can't forsee. I've got a 401k and money saved up and all that, but money can dry up really fast if you end up unemployed for some reason.

Second of all, i think the quality of life of _everyone_ would be higher if people didn't have to worry so much about money and where the next meal was coming from. There would be more art and science, more music and books at paintings and such. Sure, 99% of it would probably be crap, but that's always true, so having ten times as many people doing it still means that ten times as much good stuff would get produced.

I lean towards libertarianism, and Im always amused when anyone tries to defend socialism in any form. time and time again, it has been proved that this is a useless, corrupt system basically set up so that the lazy fucks who don't want to work can get away with it.
That's my problem with much of the left- they seem to think that people who make it for themselves (and get rich) should have to pay the bill for idiots who do nothing but sit on their couch all day. It flouts the concept of personal responsibility...

wampyre:

_No_ country's media is perfect, why do you think he said we shouldn't just listen to America's media?

To even _begin_ to get an idea of what's really going on in the world, you need to listen to a lot of different news sources, and know that all of them are exagerating or outright lying about some things.

Once you've seen something from all the different angles and heard all the different lies, you can begin to figure out the truth.

It's sad when people feel that the best response to news sources like Al Jazeera telling a different version of events is to force them off the air. Even if they are slanting the truth to their own views (which i doubt any of us here is well equiped to say with 100% certainty) the lies someone chooses to tell you can be almost as informative as the truths.

Jeff,

I do not consider myself 'right wing' and I am certainly not greedy and I am by no means a warmonger. IMO political correctness and bleeding heart liberlism will be the downfall of America if they are allowed to continue to subdue freedoms, take away our identity, and force their views down everyone's throats (because they *know* they are right).

Phaedyme,

Yes, I know. I do not mind honest questions. Take care, bud.