Emperor1G Emperor1G

Sins held back by only two things. Disappointing.

Sins held back by only two things. Disappointing.

There are only two issues in this game holding it back from being that "fantastic" game that comes around once in a long while. Sadly, they are big issues.

1. The Multi-player system setup is dreadful. I consistently see 300+ people on, and 3-4 games looking for players. Even assuming there are games in progress, day in and out the chat lobby is filled with people asking why they cannot host or join games. The 3 of us in my clan who have committed to purchasing this game have the same problem. We've followed the FAQ's to the letter, forwarded-opened-and initiated everything that requires it, and still are unable to host any games. This is a very wide spread problem, a problem that was never this bad with other titles that DID have issues like the Total War series, Dawn of War etc. Those were usually small, and patched/fixed immediately. This is something else entirely. If this hosting problem isn't resolved, and soon, there is little point to sinking any more time or effort into the game and forming a community. To say nothing of regreting the purchase.

2. Which leads to point #2.  In the absence of a decent Multi-player experience, the game is looked to for its single player accolades. Sins however, seems to ignore this. I cannot think of a major, or even minor, RTSish title with any kind of lore that did NOT have a campgain mode exploring the storyline. What was the point of a long intro and a few pages in the manual about the races backstory if there IS no story in the game? Warcraft, Starcraft, Dawn of War, Command and Conquer (both series), the list goes on ALL have a single player story mode/grand campagin. The ONLY series that doesnt, is the Total War series, and it does have missions in the game itself/its based on history, which is a story.

Barring a resolution to the above mentioned problems, especially the MP aspect of the game, I feel thats Sins will fall very short of its potential, and Im already somewhat bitter at Ironclad as a company for not following the lead of countless companies/titles who navigated around the routing concerns. Had I known previously of the problems so many people were having, I would have waited or passed on the title altogether.

I am very disappointed.
114,276 views 109 replies
Reply #51 Top
What the fuck? The brilliant campaigns in Starcraft was a part of the reason why the game became such a massive hit, and the expansion campaigns were loved by the gamers. There isn't much footage of Stafcraft2 yet, but they actually have released some video and information about the campagins there. I get your point, you don't like campagins, I'll write that in my book of useless information, but don't throw out your preferances as facts.
End of quote


(SIGH) I should have been more specific. I was referencing to Supreme Commander. Really, before you took the time to make this laughable paragraph, did you consider that Starcraft isn't like Sins? Or do you recollect me saying "open ended RTS'"? I'm guessing not. I suggest you add your comments to that book as well.

It's not that ALONE that is bad, but it's that in addition to the horrible online console. Do you honestly think that a game like this would be released only for the small targetbase of 4x sandbox freaks? The RTS aspect is bigger than the 4x aspect of the game. Lacking singleplayer, except playing against exploitable AI's (turret placement, and a dumb computer going straight through instead of going around), and a dreadful online experience combined isn't a success.
End of quote


Sounds like you have other issues, and I doubt a campaign is going to resolve them. Shouldn't those issues, which you complain about, come before a campaign?

Oh, and thanks for enlightening me.


No, but the implication was there with the sweeping generalised statement about people being 'devestated' about there being no campaign. Disappointed would have been better.
End of quote


Sorry, but I got my opinion from this topic and the fact that people took time to create post referencing to the lack of a campaign. Sorry, if "devastating" sounds too extreme.

However, I wasn't wanting an addition of a campaign to the game in a patch, but trying to point out why there should have been one in the first place
End of quote


My point relates to people complaining about it now, after realizing it isn't there and still requesting it be some added in some random patch or expansion. The forum is filled with such suggestions.

I'm saying that the game alienates a whole load of casual players because of a lack of some way to easily get into the game (which I think was the point that jonfon was getting at).
End of quote


Which goes back to my other point, the game needed a better tutorial and manual.

1) I'm not saying that the lack of a campaign has ruined the game, just that it should have probably had one at release.
End of quote


1. I never said you did. People seem keep generalizing that I'm referencing to them. I'm not. If I did, you'd know.

2) I am not devastated about the lack of a campaign, and I don't think many people are. I think many people are disappointed about the lack of a campaign, but disappointment is different to devastation.
End of quote


What? I can't use devastation? Says who? I can exaggerate as I please. Why it offends you baffles me. I'll use devastation at my on discretion, particularly since I was being sarcastic in it's original usage. It appears I need to be more formal.

Reply #52 Top
being able to tangle up enemy forces by moving into the middle of them strikes me as a perfectly valid tactic. If you don't want to get tangled up, control your fleets' positions more effectively.
End of quote


This isn't controlled by the actual AI, or player. This is the programmed pathing each ship will take. In this game, you have no direct control of the pathing.

Example:
If your captial ship is moving in one direction, and you give it a command to move in the straight opposite direction (180 degree turn), you have no way to tell it to go left or right in that turn. This is decided by the pathing. I am aware that you could use waypoints for this in this example. I just used this example to illustrate what the pathing is.

In some cases, the natural pathing itself will get a capital ship stuck, and that's the bad part. There is no way to set up waypoints for every pixel on your screen for every unit. In real space, units would be going over and under eachother if this happened anyway. It would follow the same logic as trapping something in space by putting a ring around it.
Reply #53 Top
"on your first point, you didn't do any research, because their was never intended to be a "campaign" they were always intending to do it the 4x way."

Why not stick it on the box then? oh right after you buy the game and open your stuck with it, so free cash.


As far as MP goes if you have friends use IP and you can by pass IC online service if its causeing you problems with joining or hosting games for your friends.
Reply #55 Top
Why not stick it on the box then? oh right after you buy the game and open your stuck with it, so free cash.
End of quote


Why not stick in on the box? What are you talking about? Can you name a single PC game released EVER that states what features it DOESN'T have?

"Sins of a Solar Empire: Epic 4x RTS game with no single player campaign!"
"Oblivion: Exciting single player game with no multiplayer!"
"Galactic Civilizations 2: Amazingly deep 4x in space with no multiplayer! Also, the campaign kind of stinks!"
"World of Warcraft: Epic online RPG with absolutely no single player component!"

It's your own fault if you don't research a game before buying it. The box a game comes in isn't going to tell you its entire life story. It's inherently designed to sell the product.
Reply #56 Top
I think if you dont like SP is fine but is a must. All realy good games had a strong istory behind them, and a good MP also.
For me is the other way, MP should be a secondary stuff and most work in SP.
Reply #57 Top
Devs,

Please don't ruin this title with a linear-15 mission-story-driven-single player campaign!!!!

Let us keep making the story in sandbox mode!

4x Forever!!!!!  :CONGRAT: 
Reply #58 Top
First of all I got to say that I love the game. I really do. Regarding the online point: I can't play online anyways as there are serious connection troubles due to street working in my area so I can't say anything about that (i.e. my connection breaks up after 30 mins which is too short for a nice game imo.)
Regarding the Campaign thing. I don't mind it. Infact I enjoy it. I am glad that we got all those possibilities we have and that the game is so balanced as it is now. I think that often campaigns have the sideeffect of unbalancing or biasing your opinion on faction choosing, strategies etc. In Sins you need a bit of fantasy to have a good match and I for one think a Skirmish that gives you a limited ressource problem is more logical in a context (i.e. two empires beating themselves for the same rock due to a tactical advantage) than having a half assed story that is trying to make you the main hero or the main villain.
Some seem to have issues with the pace of the game and it not being like either C&C regarding click- orgasms or Civ IV where you have to keep your eye on every city all the time without exception because it could ever go wrong due to one of the million reasons. I gotta say that Sins is the perfect middle line in between. When playing LAN I don't want to play at full pace or micro around too much. Sometimes I just want a game that I can play at a medium nice pace that allows for a not overtense atmosphere or frustration, while having a good laugh with my friends.
For me, buying this game was most definitly worth it.
Reply #59 Top
If you can't follow the instructions at portforward.com, you are an idiot, and I am happier not playing with you online If you opened all the ports and set exceptions and it's not working, YOU MISSED SOMETHING. Don't blame the devs for that. The game is set up no differently than any other peer-to-peer game (indeed, how COULD they make it different?).
End of quote


What an a@@hole. I have never had a problem playing ANY game online - except for this one. I do not have a router, nor do I use a firewall, and guess what, I still cannot host or join a game. All 20 online titles I have played in the last 6 months worked without effort. I expect Sins to do so too. It is a Sins problem, not a user problem.

Want a vibrant online community? Then you should be able to get multiplayer working without any hassles. When all four of my friends with Sins cannot hop on and get a game going (all experienced online players) there is something wrong with the system - that is a dev problem.
Reply #60 Top
I also found it a little odd that the SP lacked a storyline. The introduction had a pretty cool discussion of the races but there is no campaign? I thought a more appropriate intro would be cool clips of two battleships duking it out or something.
Reply #61 Top
Why not stick it on the box then? oh right after you buy the game and open your stuck with it, so free cash.
End of quote

If you buy a game without finding out anything more about it than what's on the box, you have only yourself to blame if it turns out to lack a feature you find important.
Reply #62 Top
Why not stick it on the box then? oh right after you buy the game and open your stuck with it, so free cash.If you buy a game without finding out anything more about it than what's on the box, you have only yourself to blame if it turns out to lack a feature you find important.
End of quote


Oh yes, its much like cruising for a hooker only to find the next week you have a rather nasty disease because you never inspected the package beforehand. RON PAUL
Reply #63 Top
If you still get the port warning and still have your ports setup right you will be able to host the game.

Story mode? ICKY!
Reply #64 Top
I disagree entirely re: the lack of a 'campaign'.

It isn't neccessary at all. I much prefer setting up my own custom map and variables and playing away ..

Reply #65 Top
Warcraft, Starcraft, Dawn of War, Command and Conquer (both series), the list goes on ALL have a single player story mode/grand campagin. The ONLY series that doesnt, is the Total War series, and it does have missions in the game itself/its based on history, which is a story.
End of quote


I’ve spend hours of my life playing through the total wars series, and I think SINS reminds me a lot of it. I think they are very identical.

I really enjoy the “risk type” campaigns that a lot of games are drawing. If you play a story campaign, once you’re done, your done. You know what happens, so why play on.

But the “risk type: campaigns like in games like:

Star Wars, Empire at War
Total War Series
Dawn of War after the Dark Crusade expansion
Cossack Series
Sins of a Solar Empire
Many Others


:are absolutely fantastic. They leave a whole lot of replayability. It is never the same game twice.

I am willing to give up a story in all my future games if they present this “risk style” campaign. Kudos to the developers of this game.

Don’t make a singleplayer story, I for one, don’t need it.
Reply #66 Top


@ Painlezz

Problems in this game are aweful AI... making singleplayer more annoyance than anything else.Multiplayer isn't an option for almost anyone with a real life...
End of quote



Because I understand networks, have never had an issue hosting/playing anything ever (and never will) I suddenly "don't have a real life..."? I guess I'd have more time for a "real life" if I stopped helping ungrateful shits like you!


- monk out
Reply #67 Top
Keep in mind folks that developer time is a resource. Every thing you add into a game has a cost.

Yeah, they could have added a campaign, but it would have meant one of a couple things

1) They don't have as much time to polish and perfect the MP game or worse, they make concessions on MP/skirmish gameplay for the sake of the campaign.

2) They spend a lot of extra time on the game. They lose money, 4x Games and Stardock are less able to fund their next game.


1 is unacceptable. 2 is acceptable IF adding a campaign would add a lot to the game. 4x decided that it would not add much to the game and that the time spent developing it would not be worth the benefit of having it.


Reply #68 Top


@ Painlezz

..unless of course you meant "many people don't have the time to play multiplayer.." In which case I apologise for my "words".

 :D 

the Monk
Reply #69 Top
I agree with most of the opinions of a previous poster (Melric), even though I have found some people (through this forum) with whom I can play ICO games without experiencing any problem : excellent host, no joining issues, no lag, no crashes, no save-game reload issues.

I base my agreement, then, on reading a lot of posts, on this forum, concerning the hosting and joining difficulties of (too) many users.

The fact that I have no problems with ICO cannot be generalized in any representative manner. Some critics, on this forum, belittle the problems of other users simply because they (and their little gang) have no problems.

Being called "lazy" (on another, router-related thread) and an "idiot" (on this thread) by self-appointed « experts » is not only distasteful, it misses the point :

It is not the paying customer's responsibility to "work" and be tech-"smart" to make a product function as promised by the manufacturer.

Like Melric said, many games offer a MP functionality, right out of the box, that does not require non-idiot work.

Three years ago, after installing and patching World of WarCraft, I could play on-line a few minutes later -- without any configuration of my router. In fact, I have had a router for 6½ years and Sins is the only game that has required me to configure that router!

I went to portforward.com, and I can then understand that some gamers might find their instructions too complicated : they are not "idiots" and "lazy" just because they don't find the portforward.com instructions that easy to implement.

An example. To get my internal IP address, I had to execute the cmd command in the start\run box. That opened the cmd32.exe box. There, I was told to enter ipconfig. Problem : the first line was already occupied by a C:\Documents and Settings\Jean-Paul> instruction. Where then could I insert ipconfig, on its own line ? I don't recall that portforward.com offered any tip to deal with such a situation. I then remembered my old DOS syntax : cd.. (a cd followed by two periods). So, I added cd.. after "Jean-Paul>". Pressed enter. I then got C:\Documents and Settings>. I repeated the cd.. trick to finally get C:\>. That's when I had to insert ipconfig, press enter, to obtain my internal IP address.

A normal gamer who has never had to use cd.. in DOS would then scratch his head : is he a "lazy" "idiot" because he does not know how to solve a DOS syntax problem? Some other types of snags can occur when you are trying to apply portforward.com's procedure.

I was lucky. I finally got my internal IP address. I did not try to define a "static IP address" following portforward.com's procedure : I gambled that the result I got after executing ipconfig was a static IP. I went into the router after following the instructions on the manufacturer's website, found the Port Forwarding tab, indicated 6000-6112 TCP >> my IP address on the first line -- and hoped for the best.

It was the very first time in 6½ years that I had to do that, and I really was not certain that it would work. Obviously, it did : I can join and play ICO games for hours (with a suitable host).

I have a full-time day job. In the evening, I don't have the time and energy to focus on router-configuration, and time to waste on ICO with unsuccessful attempts to host or join games. Other users have classes during the day and homework to do : they don't have any more time and energy to waste on doing "non-idiot work" to make the Sins MP function.

I consequently agree with what a previous poster (Melric) has stated :

« It is a Sins problem, not a user problem. [...It] is a dev problem. »

Before the forum "fan-boys" pounce on me, let me conclude by stressing that I enjoy Sins very much -- it is a masterpiece in its original genre. But I agree, in some measure, with the OP's criticism of the game's MP dimension.
Reply #70 Top
I NEVER play the campaign in rts games. So for me personally, i couldnt care less if they didnt have one. I'd rather let them spend those extra months fine-tuning the actual gameplay, rather than sit and make an interesting scripted linear same-everytime-you-play-it campaign.
Reply #71 Top

@CyberMage

1. The argument that a user of a game shouldn't have to "learn" anything to use it ridiculous. You did have to "learn" to drive a car didn't you? What would you have said to someone complaining about not being able to drive, without recognizing the need to learn how?

2. Just because many games use "encapsulating/tunneling" techniques for their netcode to "bypass" NAT-devices doesn't make that some defacto standard. It is actually that much unsafer for your computer system, because traffic is handled much more "loosely" (loose NAT rules) which can only serve to increase a computer system's overall security-breach potential.

3. You didn't have to "cd..", the c:\windows\system32\ folder which contains the "ipconfig" file you were trying to run is included in the system's PATH statement allowing you to "execute" it from anywhere (any path location on your hard drive at the command-prompt will do), as will going to your "network connections" folder, right-clicking on your LAN adapter and "left-clicking" on STATUS.  :D  No need for the command-prompt even.


the Monk
Reply #72 Top
I agree with most of the opinions of a previous poster (Melric), even though I have found some people (through this forum) with whom I can play ICO games without experiencing any problem : excellent host, no joining issues, no lag, no crashes, no save-game reload issues. I base my agreement, then, on reading a lot of posts, on this forum, concerning the hosting and joining difficulties of (too) many users.The fact that I have no problems with ICO cannot be generalized in any representative manner. Some critics, on this forum, belittle the problems of other users simply because they (and their little gang) have no problems. Being called "lazy" (on another, router-related thread) and an "idiot" (on this thread) by self-appointed « experts » is not only distasteful, it misses the point :It is not the paying customer's responsibility to "work" and be tech-"smart" to make a product function as promised by the manufacturer.Like Melric said, many games offer a MP functionality, right out of the box, that does not require non-idiot work. Three years ago, after installing and patching World of WarCraft, I could play on-line a few minutes later -- without any configuration of my router. In fact, I have had a router for 6½ years and Sins is the only game that has required me to configure that router!I went to portforward.com, and I can then understand that some gamers might find their instructions too complicated : they are not "idiots" and "lazy" just because they don't find the portforward.com instructions that easy to implement.An example. To get my internal IP address, I had to execute the cmd command in the start\run box. That opened the cmd32.exe box. There, I was told to enter ipconfig. Problem : the first line was already occupied by a C:\Documents and Settings\Jean-Paul> instruction. Where then could I insert ipconfig, on its own line ? I don't recall that portforward.com offered any tip to deal with such a situation. I then remembered my old DOS syntax : cd.. (a cd followed by two periods). So, I added cd.. after "Jean-Paul>". Pressed enter. I then got C:\Documents and Settings>. I repeated the cd.. trick to finally get C:\>. That's when I had to insert ipconfig, press enter, to obtain my internal IP address. A normal gamer who has never had to use cd.. in DOS would then scratch his head : is he a "lazy" "idiot" because he does not know how to solve a DOS syntax problem?
End of quote

Well what you have there is something odd to be honest. So far for me, every PC running XP / Vista I have worked with, swallowed the ipconfig command like a good boy. I am not claiming that I am a professional, neither do I claim to be good at networking, but it seems things depend on the setup of your PC.
Anyways, putting that aside, I must say that even though I didn't try Sins online yet, I have had quite a few problematic multiplayer games and at the end of the day, they were all fixed somehow.
Now I am not a fan of irony but as you already tread upon the "World of Warcraft = fine" path, maybe I should tell you a funny story. I remember many friends of mine not being able to connect for 2 or more weeks after the server was moved due to IP problems with Blizzard. Seeing that you pay for these kind of games / month and you don't with SoaSE makes a large difference. Here you can just wait until things are fixed WITHOUT losing money. Just to defend the dev's.
Give them the time they need to fix it and hope they adress it in patch 1.03
/rant over

Reply #73 Top

Games like SINS and other rts, 4x games are the kind of games that thrive on their OPEN ENDED approach to gameplay. We all know, that unless you are playing an RPG, all single player campaign games, be it FPS or whatever genre; are completely linear and "on rails" so to speak, as regards their basic gameplay. I know that I for one enjoy sins and it ilk for the shear free form experience they have to offer. No two games are ever the same in skirmish, multiplayer, whatever. I own many similar rts and 4x titles with single player campaigns such as Total War, Supreme Commander, etc and I have never played through the single player campaigns in any of them. I feel that their linear nature defeats the purpose of the game and hence instead i find much joy in skirmish, multiplayer etc. So I was glad when ironclad said there would be no campaign in Sins.
Reply #74 Top
I think Baleurion said it well, above. I totally agree. Screw single player campaigns in these kind of games. They dont suit the kind of free form gameplay on offer here. They are too linear. I never play single player campaign in rts or 4x. Whats the point? WELL DONE IRONCLAD!!!! I LOVE SINS OF A SOLAR EMPIRE!!! WOW, I ALSO LOVE SAYING THAT TITLE. COOL!!!
Reply #75 Top
@ Eranikus

Thanks for your polite feedback relative to my (too) long post.

Some gamers have experienced no problems whatsoever connecting to the Blizzard servers, some others have.

Some gamers have experienced no problems whatsoever hosting and/or joining games on ICO, some others have.

The issue, on this forum, is that too many gamers (not all, not most : too many) are declaring that they're having technical problems with the Sins multiplayer, on-line process.

I concede to you that my problem with the cmd32.exe box might have been rare, but it was only a particular illustration of my point, which was that busy gamers are not "lazy" or "idiot" because they are having trouble configuring their router or a "static IP address".

All sorts of special snags can occur, when trying to execute portforward.com's instructions.

My conclusion agreed with a previous poster (Melric), whose opinion I restate in my own words :

It was Ironclad's job to develop and test an on-line MP system that would be readily and easily accessible to their average customers.

Perhaps they should have put this legal disclaimer on their game-box (and on the SDC advertisement) :

« Buyers beware. To play on-line, you might have to study the instructions given at www.portforward.com : Ironclad and Stardock are not responsible if your router prevents you from hosting and/or joining on-line games of Sins. »

Some hesitant consumers would then have said to themselves : "Oups. I'm a lazy idiot when it comes to tech stuff like that. I'm gonna pass on this one."