Sins held back by only two things. Disappointing.

from Sins Forums
There are only two issues in this game holding it back from being that "fantastic" game that comes around once in a long while. Sadly, they are big issues.

1. The Multi-player system setup is dreadful. I consistently see 300+ people on, and 3-4 games looking for players. Even assuming there are games in progress, day in and out the chat lobby is filled with people asking why they cannot host or join games. The 3 of us in my clan who have committed to purchasing this game have the same problem. We've followed the FAQ's to the letter, forwarded-opened-and initiated everything that requires it, and still are unable to host any games. This is a very wide spread problem, a problem that was never this bad with other titles that DID have issues like the Total War series, Dawn of War etc. Those were usually small, and patched/fixed immediately. This is something else entirely. If this hosting problem isn't resolved, and soon, there is little point to sinking any more time or effort into the game and forming a community. To say nothing of regreting the purchase.

2. Which leads to point #2.  In the absence of a decent Multi-player experience, the game is looked to for its single player accolades. Sins however, seems to ignore this. I cannot think of a major, or even minor, RTSish title with any kind of lore that did NOT have a campgain mode exploring the storyline. What was the point of a long intro and a few pages in the manual about the races backstory if there IS no story in the game? Warcraft, Starcraft, Dawn of War, Command and Conquer (both series), the list goes on ALL have a single player story mode/grand campagin. The ONLY series that doesnt, is the Total War series, and it does have missions in the game itself/its based on history, which is a story.

Barring a resolution to the above mentioned problems, especially the MP aspect of the game, I feel thats Sins will fall very short of its potential, and Im already somewhat bitter at Ironclad as a company for not following the lead of countless companies/titles who navigated around the routing concerns. Had I known previously of the problems so many people were having, I would have waited or passed on the title altogether.

I am very disappointed.
114,285 views 109 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Hmm, I didn't even realize.. I too see several hundred players yet only a few games open. I figured all the rest were just involved in games....

Javaslinger
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
There are only two issues in this game holding it back from being that "fantastic" game that comes around once in a long while. Sadly, they are big issues.1. The Multi-player system setup is dreadful. I consistently see 300+ people on, and 3-4 games looking for players. Even assuming there are games in progress, day in and out the chat lobby is filled with people asking why they cannot host or join games. The 3 of us in my clan who have committed to purchasing this game have the same problem. We've followed the FAQ's to the letter, forwarded-opened-and initiated everything that requires it, and still are unable to host any games. This is a very wide spread problem, a problem that was never this bad with other titles that DID have issues like the Total War series, Dawn of War etc. Those were usually small, and patched/fixed immediately. This is something else entirely. If this hosting problem isn't resolved, and soon, there is little point to sinking any more time or effort into the game and forming a community. To say nothing of regreting the purchase.2. Which leads to point #2.  In the absence of a decent Multi-player experience, the game is looked to for its single player accolades. Sins however, seems to ignore this. I cannot think of a major, or even minor, RTSish title with any kind of lore that did NOT have a campgain mode exploring the storyline. What was the point of a long intro and a few pages in the manual about the races backstory if there IS no story in the game? Warcraft, Starcraft, Dawn of War, Command and Conquer (both series), the list goes on ALL have a single player story mode/grand campagin. The ONLY series that doesnt, is the Total War series, and it does have missions in the game itself/its based on history, which is a story. Barring a resolution to the above mentioned problems, especially the MP aspect of the game, I feel thats Sins will fall very short of its potential, and Im already somewhat bitter at Ironclad as a company for not following the lead of countless companies/titles who navigated around the routing concerns. Had I known previously of the problems so many people were having, I would have waited or passed on the title altogether.I am very disappointed.
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on your first point, you didn't do any research, because their was never intended to be a "campaign" they were always intending to do it the 4x way. that is on you. i don't do multiplayer so that doesn't effect me.

but really dude. if those are you only two gripes than good luck in the game world. you mentioned nothing about the actual gameplay itself. just "modes" that were left out on purpose or not quite perfect.

garrett
Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
I myself rarely play rtsl campaigns, but alot of people out there love them, I was suprised whent hey made the descision not to have one. I think it hurt the game. and the multiplayer routing is a problem. It wasnt an issue for me because I am rather tech-savvy, but alot of players simply are not exactly sure how to do this port forwarding stuff!
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
So, multiplayer is simply a mode and nothing more? Just an extra? So, if you take away MP (as is the case) that leaves a storyless game where you simply create random maps against the same AI opponents game in and out? Ah, I see. Sounds to me that you simply have very low expectations. And you're right in one regard, its on me for assuming this game would be like every other. Where a storyline is given, lore and races introduced, and then....nothing. Yes I should have looked into that more, never assume.

Im "tech savvy" as well, which is why my frustration is at the level it is. But I find it funny that the fellow who posted about my griping seems to have forgotten SINGLE PLAYER STORY MODE AND MULTIPLAYER ARE THE ONLY TWO ASPECTS OF A GAME.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
I myself rarely play rtsl campaigns, but alot of people out there love them, I was suprised whent hey made the descision not to have one. I think it hurt the game. and the multiplayer routing is a problem. It wasnt an issue for me because I am rather tech-savvy, but alot of players simply are not exactly sure how to do this port forwarding stuff!
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that doesn't bother me but my second paragraph was my point. he seems ok with the actual gameplay.

lol
garrett

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
So, multiplayer is simply a mode and nothing more? Just an extra? So, if you take away MP (as is the case) that leaves a storyless game where you simply create random maps against the same AI opponents game in and out? Ah, I see. Sounds to me that you simply have very low expectations. And you're right in one regard, its on me for assuming this game would be like every other. Where a storyline is given, lore and races introduced, and then....nothing. Yes I should have looked into that more, never assume.Im "tech savvy" as well, which is why my frustration is at the level it is. But I find it funny that the fellow who posted about my griping seems to have forgotten SINGLE PLAYER STORY MODE AND MULTIPLAYER ARE THE ONLY TWO ASPECTS OF A GAME.
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i hate story modes, and never have much luck tech wise or time wise with mp, so they are irrelevant to me.

garrett

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
and the multiplayer routing is a problem. It wasnt an issue for me because I am rather tech-savvy, but alot of players simply are not exactly sure how to do this port forwarding stuff!
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See, that's where I don't have any understanding at all! I mean, what would you say to a person complaining that they can't drive a car without learning to drive?


Just a personal gripe of mine...

/rant off
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
and if i want to a story ill read a book, watch tv, or a movie. i don't go to games for that.

im not trying to say you shouldn't have stories in games but i don't think they really a requirment for games.

garrett
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
But I find it funny that the fellow who posted about my griping seems to have forgotten SINGLE PLAYER STORY MODE AND MULTI PLAYER ARE THE ONLY TWO ASPECTS OF A GAME.
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No there is Co-Op which is really two-player usually, RPG's aside. Army of Two comes to mind for the X-Box. It's best when played with two people. then there is that weird Multi player style Kane and Lynch came up with where you can kill your partners, but they become opponents then who can hunt you down while your team might turn on you as well.

Plus there are people like me who play Multi player, but over LAN not online. I've never been a fan on online Multi in RTS games for one simple fact. I suck against 70-82% of the people who play online. C and C, Sup Com, Starcraft etc. No matter how much I play I can never beat the learning curve. So I play LAN against friends. some beat me some don't and it's not always the same people doing either. So for people like me this game is a godsend. a really stable game you can customize, with a great map tool. Just go to C and C site and see how many maps they list on their site. Last time I was there 2 weeks ago they only had 7 to download in the custom map section. Now look how many there are for SoaSE or Sup Com.

While the lack of a campaign is a minus, I can overlook that in favor of a game they made sure ran well, "cough" Sup Com "cough"; and who knows. when unreal came out some of the first patches we're half the size of the game. One day we might get a big SoaSE patch and voila a campaign. Or now that they know they have a stable, and popular, game they might eventually add one we can download in chapters. Just look at how Steam handled the expansions to HL2 or SIN. episodic content at your fingertips.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
I don't know about you but in these kinds of games I hardly touch the campaign and go straight for the skirmish mode.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
I don't know about you but in these kinds of games I hardly touch the campaign and go straight for the skirmish mode.
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that's my argument. lol

garrett
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
If you can't follow the instructions at portforward.com, you are an idiot, and I am happier not playing with you online :)

If you opened all the ports and set exceptions and it's not working, YOU MISSED SOMETHING. Don't blame the devs for that. The game is set up no differently than any other peer-to-peer game (indeed, how COULD they make it different?).
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
Stardock hs a reputation for supporting their work. I have not tried MP mode yet, since I'm still working at improving my game. I do know if MP is in there it will be supported. And, also I've read in other posts that a storyline is in the works. So.. read the forums. You can also submit a support ticket with sufficient detail to describe the problem. They'll respond. ;) 
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
Honestly of all the game genre's that don't need stories RTS should be at the top of the list right behind most TBS games. Waiting for people to complain about Civilization not having a campaign.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
The multiplayer problems is a BIG issue imo. The devs kept on saying that they knew how to easily fix every multiplayer issue which turned out to be BS, and even for people who have issues that can be resolved it may require several hours of trouble shooting. They dropped the ball on this.


Personally, i don't need a campaign. I'll go play Warcraft 3 or dawn of war (been meaning to finish some of those) if i want story with a RTS.

Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
I'm glad that there isn't a campaign mode; it would have taken up too much time to make.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
I don't know about you but in these kinds of games I hardly touch the campaign and go straight for the skirmish mode.
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Heheheh same here. But a story campaign wouldn't be a bad thing, as long as its not too long :/ Being that the pace of the game is pretty slow, I would imagine that each scenario would take 3-4 hours to complete.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
Er, if you've followed the FAQ on setting up a MP game, it'll work - sure ICO says that it might not, because the way they do a port open test sucks, but it works. I get that message every time, and never have a problem as long as port 6112 is forwarded to my local IP , and the port is allowed through windows firewall..

And like the above person said, if that still fails, Hamachi ftw.
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
If you can't follow the instructions at portforward.com, you are an idiot, and I am happier not playing with you online If you opened all the ports and set exceptions and it's not working, YOU MISSED SOMETHING. Don't blame the devs for that. The game is set up no differently than any other peer-to-peer game (indeed, how COULD they make it different?).
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Thats exactly it. People assume that just because they can't figure it out its the developers fault. I've never had issues hosting any multiplayer games in ICO.

OP, did you turn all your firewalls off? Disable whatever virus scanner you got?
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
I hate story modes. Pretty much in every game.

It doesn't lend itself to the kind of open-ended gameplay i like. I'm not at all interested in replaying the same "story" over and over.

If i want a good story, I'll read a book. :)

Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
honestly, hosting works exactly the same way as it does in warcraft 3. If your behind a router or firewall, you will be unable to host unless you configure them properly. If it still doesn't work after that, you obviously havn't configured them properly...

as far as the games you see and the number of players on ico; if you think about the amount of time it takes to set up a game vs the amount of time it takes to play, I'd say those numbers are spot on.
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
It tells me people may have trouble joining my games when no one ever has.. @_@
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
Hmmm... Out of all the time I've been playing SINS, I've only had one game where one of the guys had networking issues. But, I guess that's a case of YMMV.
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
No campagin is not an issue, most tbs\rts do exactly the same thing sins does, basically at least 95% of the time spend with such a gaem with be in the "skrimish" mode.

that said I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the game. It has the whole expanse of solar systems, yet I feel very constrained while playing. The biggest problem I personally have experienced is that I get no joy out of playing Sins, but I want to, thus why I haven’t given up on it yet.

Perhaps the issue comes down with it trying to be a "4Xrts". There is not enough strategy or management for it to be a 4x, yet not enough action to be an rts. I find myself sitting waiting to be able to do something, and when impute is required only a few mindless clicks and its back to waiting.

I can sit and play a 10 hour civ game and love it. I can do round after round of supcom and get my fix. Hell, I could play C&C3 for a bit and at least have a clickfest. But with sins I just don’t see where the game is. So I guess that settles where I stand on how I feel.

I doubt this is directly related to your post. I applaud your wanting to help and explain what Sins problems are, and that you’re trying to help, but when such basic game design issues are present, and so many of the mechanics are essentially broken, it means someone dropped the ball, and it was neither you nor me.



Stardock, Ironclad, thank you for bringing this game-type into the mainstream, and I hope you can fix its issues, and that either this game, or those that come after it will live up to its designs
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
But I find it funny that the fellow who posted about my griping seems to have forgotten SINGLE PLAYER STORY MODE AND MULTIPLAYER ARE THE ONLY TWO ASPECTS OF A GAME.
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Wow, that means there are a lot of things I play that aren't games. ;)

Personally, I can't remember the last time I bothered with a campaign in an RTS or turn-based strategy game. I appreciate that some people like them, so your mileage may vary.