Asymetrical factions

You know, had you dug into the tech trees some more you would have noticed that they really are quite different. Not "slightly", but very. TEC get trade ports at Civics 2, while the Vasari get it at 5 (well, 5ish... I'm not a Vasari player). And if you want something more than just "rearranging" things, notice that Vasari have seperate weapon techs for the frigates and capitols... or that the TEC are the only ones with more than "basic" economy techs... Or lets look at Insurgency Vs Returning Armada! Or that Advent "free XP" research, or their extra "cap" on allegiance... or... or...

Same thing goes for the races in general -- if you look, they really are quite different.

Advent get tradeports at 3 and vasari at 4.

Congratulations on your condescending reply pointing out something I already know and acknowledge. You have to acknowledge the fact that the units and tech trees of the factions have far more similarities than they have differences. Most RTS games will have some differences in the units and tech of each faction, but they will follow a basic pattern and they will be similar with equivalent (if not identical) tech and units for each faction. In this game we have our scout frigate, light frigate, attack frigate, anti-fighter frigate, siege frigate and colony frigate etc. While the cruisers and capitals vary more in their abilities and roles, they all follow one template and pretty much all units will have a counterpart in the fleet of another race.

I'm talking about a completely different template, factions that have next to nothing in common with any other faction.

Nope, their weapon techs are just like everyone else's.


What do you mean by this? The Vasari match their resource extraction rate increase at 40%, and they also match their trade income increase at 30%. Those two tech bonuses are identical so I'm not sure what you mean by 'more than basic economic techs', unless you mean their single race specific super tech.

Pffbt. Not common factions don't tend to be universal to games at all. The Total Annhilation series never followed it, nor do most RTS games. Quite frankly the only games I can think of with wholly different factions are Starcraft, Warcraft III, Warhammer,Dragonshard, Command & Conquer Generals/Tiberium wars and possibly Company of heroes (Although they do indeed have unit equivelancies.)

Asking for asymmetric factions is quite frankly, unusual. Most games simply don't have them. Also, there are almost no turn based strategy or 4x games that have remotely asymmetric factions- most have the same faction with slight differences and cosmetic upgrades,

The differences between units are very slight, but because of the numbers involved they tend to differ at the level of fleets. It's like how any individual soldier in Total War will only have slightly different stats from any other within its same type (light infantry/heavy cavalry etc) but at the army level you end up with radically different forces. Making units from the same cohort sharply differ from each other, when there are hundreds of like types engaging each other in a small space, would

a) make battles much more susceptible to heavy micro

make balancing the game at different tech levels (and balancing between economic and military focus) take forever

c) completely change the pace of battles so that different technology/availability of units would in itself produce quick routs

They very deliberately chose not to make the game into another 'Diablo with unit factories' RTS.

I partly agree with the OP.
True, the basic setup of all races is the same. Same ship types, same research types. The differences here are really minor.
However I find it very interesting how these minor differences have a huge impact on gameplay.

Trade tech tier 4 instead of tear 2, doesn't seem like a big difference at first.
But in a multiplayer game when the enemy is pushing towards you those two research tiers will cost you the money equivalent of a dozen frigates which you enemy will then have more then you when he comes ringing your planetary doorbell. So by altering the placement in the research tree the factions really play different.

Also, small alteration in the ships themselves have quite an impact on the gameplay: Illuminator damage typ and range makes them quite different from e.g. Javelins.

On top of that there are the race specific specialties: Capital ships abilities and support cruisers make a huge difference, as well as (in the lategame) the higher tier race specific techs (TEC unlimited money tech or phase gates for example).

In the end it wasn't really so different with StarCraft: What was Protoss vs Zerg else then altered numbers (Zerglings vs Zealots for example, same unit type but with different stats) with mostly the special abilities standing out (Templar Psi Storm for example) and a few higher tier special units (Reaver, Defiler, Carrier etc).

There never has been a game were all races are really completly different. They all need the basic attacker units and all that.
Sins makes the mistake of clearly showing these similarities. The similar units are in the same places in the building queue and also in similar tech research fields.

I'd say if IC had made the Destra Cruisader for example a little weaker and the Illuminator a little stronger but switched their position in the tech tree and also in the build menu, nobody would notice the strong similarity to other races units.

Having all ships in the same build menu spot for the races and even having the same capital ship themes in the same build spots makes the game look less diverse then it actually is.

You asked we delivered sorry if you already had one but you asked.

wtf i bught dis game teh other nite and im pISSED AS HEIL cuz all 3 factins gotz ships i mean wtf why shuld TEC hav guns and Vaseri have guns it dont make sense dats alot of cretivity (NOT LOLOL)

Remember: Every game can be picked and knicked apart.

I think the real nitpick here is not the units and how similar they are, but resource gathering and base building. In particular, Starcraft had vastly different base building ideas, and the resource gathering was fairly dissimilar. Who cares if the units match up pretty closely... if the way you get to each unit has such a different feel, it makes them play radically differently.

But while the 'feel' of the races is very similar just like other contemporary games like Total Annihilation 2... er... I mean Supreme Commander... the actual gameplay is just as different as in Starcraft.

In particular, the differences between the power of the units is marked. The Vasari's long range frigate costs 6 supply, vs the other two costing 4. That, and their bonus power, make them play very differently... we're talking a difference in strength of over 50%, not counting their unique ability to look like a huge fleet. While they fill the same role, their effect on gameplay is very different.

Do some RTS games have more differences between factions? Yes. Do MOST RTS games have more differences between factions? No. I think Sins is right in the middle of the pack when it comes to how varied the strategy is from faction to faction.

In many ways it is an advantage... I know people who went months without ever playing one of the Starcraft races, because they did not understand how to play them well. They were so different, they almost played like a different game. And that can be a benefit, but also a drawback... it's a lot harder to learn a different race. In Sins, learning the strengths and weaknesses of the 3 races is easier. You may think that's good, or bad, but it's a personal decision... it's not something you can point out as a flaw in the game, just something that you personally don't like.

Myrddin

rofl The sarcasm is to much.

More like everygame IS picked and knicked apart.

People are people, and people are unreasonable and spiteful beings.

As for the rest of us? We're lucky to be able to appreciate and enjoy our toys.

Of course if I didn't appreciate this game I wouldn't be playing.

I agree the factions might have a fair amount of similarity at first glance, but it helps give the game a real "pick up play" feel and nicely balanced against each other.

Some more diversity might have been nice, but at least this way all the races are fun to play as/against and you're not left wondering why the hell they bothered to put race x in and design them that way in the first place. (Like the orcs in Warhammer 40k DOW)

All in all I see about as much (if not more) diversity here btween the factions as I did in the homeworld series, which is pretty close to perfect for space rts/empire building.

Nope. Phase Missiles are their core weapons branch, which benefits everything. Apart from that, Pulse Guns only benefit frigates(not including Assailant) and support cruisers and Pulse Beams ONLY buff capital ships. Wave Cannons also boost the weapons only on capital ships and the Enforcer heavy cruiser.

Similarly, the Advent have Lasers and Beams which together constitute their core weapons(used on everything), but their Plasma tech only benefits capital ships and the Crusader heavy cruiser.

The TEC, though, has it's weapons spread out with Autocannon techs boosting some weapon systems and Missile techs boosting others, and Lasers for the smaller weapons. It's a mishmash for the TEC.

I'm afraid that's simply not correct, the phase missiles upgrade only affects phase missiles, which means it only affects a small number of their regular ships (2 or 3, If I remember correctly) and perhaps about 1/3 of the damage of most of their capital ships. Their heavy cruisers are unaffected by this upgrade, as are their light frigates, etc.

doesn't even affect 1/3rd of the damage of most cap ships and for one not at all, however it is significant for the desolator.

the list of non caps it influences is:
assailants.
bombers/fighters.
sentinels.

I forgot about priceless trade goods... I don't play Vasari very much, I suck at them. But the TEC have both trade ports and refineries boosted by their trade tech is what I was referring to. I could also point out the various culture bonuses as being a much more obvious difference between racial tech trees, however.



You don't know very much about human nature, do you? No one has to admit anything... even when the immense difference between races in this game smacks them in the face. (AKA, for the hard of implications: You have to acknowledge the fact that the races play far more differently than they do the same!)