Withing thirty minutes, at most 45



Oh, you must be mistaken. I said that it would help to use capships and support caps(hopefully with repair abilities) when you assault an enemy world that is either building up, or already has RA. That way your units will matter a lot more and last a lot longer. Not to mention the fac that going completely RA usually makes you neglect early millitary research.

I by no way said it was my strategy.



You should've been able to detect the build up of such a quick rush. The player was fueling this rush completely to get it out so quickly. Which meant if you attacked him you would've most likely won.



Do list some of my horrific spelling eeros, so I can can list some of yours. Not to mention grammar



No, not really. I have better things to contribute my time to



Why are you being such an asshole?

Correction: RA really isn't counterable once you really get it going. The only way to counter it is to prevent it altogether... not going to happen if the enemy is playing defensivly and you're scouting. Never blindly rush RA without knowing what the hell is going on on the other planets.

Within 30 minutes?
In high level games people tend to tech VERY slowly, because teching means building less ships, building less ships means you have less ships to kill the enemies ships.
And i'm assuming you mean the tech for your support cruisers abilities too.

Getting a 4th mil or civ and researching 2 more techs you could get 8 frigs for. Having 25% less ships than your enemy isn't going to help when being attacked/attacking.

I usually neglect to research in most of my games against anyone. I advance quite quickly and prefer to take players out. If it happens fast enough and they are still in their early phases of infrastructe I usually win.

Its win or lose strategy though, becaues if the player is able to push me back he will out tech me and likely win.

Luckily enough I haven't really suffered a loss yet by being aggressive. But, I haven't played many challenging games online, at least not yet.

so have you gods of sins played out a game yet? I want to see some good LRM counter, RA counter, spam counter replays already

There were no counter replays winning.

I won using all the strats he claimed he countered. Replays are already posted, search around in this thread.

There's 2 replays already posted in this thread

1st one was HuntingX vs innociv
http://rapidshare.com/files/97134038/1v1_inno.record.html

This game was HuntinX showing innociv that well executed LRM rush can't be countered. Hell, innociv ALSO went mass LRMs which completely contradicts his point about them sucking.


2nd one was me(Jinx)& HuntingX vs innociv & Tarin
http://rapidshare.com/files/97402917/2v2_Darkfleet_Inno.record.html

This game I was TEC so that I could feed cash to HuntingX. I countered Innociv's LRM rush with my own LRMs + repair station. My counter fleet ended up mostly wiping out his fleet so I went to attack with it. Mind you, this fleet was just for defensive purposes originally. I was only trying to not die so that I could ensure HuntingX gets his RA up as quickly as possible. Once he got his RA, the "GG" was set in stone so I stopped microing after that point and just spammed units while watching HuntingX kill everyone.

In short, there is no real good counter to an LRM rush or an properly executed RA rush (short of killing them well before they get it)

Destroying civil labs does not stop RA from working.
The Advent sacrificed his fleet and his cap for nothing. (Even if it would have stopped RA, the losses in frigates alone were several times higher than the cost of simply building another lab... which takes about 1.5 mins.)

ERmmm actually jinx like i said i lost because i let my asteroid bleed and i went to that ice to level my antorak. I wasn't thinking of the important of that asteroid field enough.

Sentinels are too expensive to build to counter LRMS early on, so you just make lrms, and out micro. You can't afford spending research cost which you could build 5 assailants for and then the cost of sentinels, you won't get enough sentinels until later on.

Advent is the only one that can counter LRM rush well IMO because disciples are cheap, and so are disciples if you need to make those, and they share the same techs.

Later in the game when i had that mixed sentinel and assailant fleet i was beating the LRM spam badly, but by then it was far to late.



Once you get RA that early, it IS uncounterable. It's not even possible to get to the point with Advent where you have your 80% mitigation, gaurdians, mothership, and fleet that's hard to kill so you can just sit there and soak up damage while slowly killing at the point you can get RA it seems to me.


It CAN be stopped.. but jinx was feeding money to him, and I attacked too soon. I should of waited until i had a frigate factory but despite having a smaller fleet I was pretty sure i would hurt him enough to not counter attack.
When you look at it, mil should ALWAYS beat civ.
+10% damage +10% life ships SHOULD be better than <10% more ships from your increased eco from upgrading extraction rates.
Having better ships and ability to counter faster SHOULD be better than them being able to make more of one ship you can beat with your stronger ships.
For the cost of 3 phase stabs you can make more than a dozen ships! So you should have a one dozen ship advantage.
The 7 civ stations cost a ton, many ships there when you only need 1 or 2 mil to attack, the difference in stations for all those ships is enough for another dozen ships.
Annddd the tech, that's enough for more than 20 more ships, no?

So if someones trying to get to RA, before they reach it, you SHOULD be 50 ships ahead of them... unless you just got out-played.
Of course, if you see someone (a vasari) building a 3rd civ station early on you should be attacking them right away. You shouldn't already have a resource advantage with your just having 1 or 2 mil. So they should no longer be trying to get RA. You don't just sit there trying to continue on getting RA while being rushed.
But HuntingX had a good opportunity to continue on.. tarin didn't get the chance to attack until right after RA was up, ships were already coming in. I'm not sure he would of taken Hunting if he attacked earlier even.

Theory wise, RA is easily countered if you take it out before it's up. You should have 50 more ships.
That's not to say that build might not be a bit broken though. Wouldn't hurt to change RA so it scales by how early you get it (Ie for the first hour it only makes skirmishers and assailants and at a slower rate, then longer into the game it makes more ship types, or it only makes ships you have researched so you don't get enforcers unless you have the mil for it too)

Disciples are cheap but they're also weaklings at only 8.5 DPS, reduced to 6.37 when facing Light Armor. They also use Medium Armor, which means that anti-medium Javelis LRMs will be dealing 16.5 DPS against them instead of 11. What's more, the Disciples are cheaper than the Javelis LRMs by only 20 crystal, with the cash, metal and supply costs being equal and the TEC having a stronger economy(with their extractors coming a level earlier and their strong early-starting trade). An group of Javelises vs. an equal number Disciples would result in the LRMs winning, they're simply better optimized for the job.

In fact, the Seeker Vessel would hold off better against LRMs because their anti-light weapons would do 6 DPS, and their light armor would take only 11 DPS, but more importantly, they cost only 2 supply points and 200 cash and(unlike slower flaks) are unavoidable because they're also faster than LRMs. Their hull, armor and shield stats are also identical to that of Disciple Vessels. They could be fielded in twice the numbers that Disciples could be fielded in, and would fare much better, with the survivors being recycled for the reconnaissance role, anti-siege defense, and eventually, as disposable suicide missiles.

yes but disciples are the fastest, you can pull them away with good micro before they die.

And sorry the first "disciples" should of said defence vessals.
For some reason defence vessals seem to fair far better early game than the others, while sentinels are better later game.

Oh and you aren't supposed to sit them infront of the lrms.. you're supposed to circle behind them. Flaks fire 360degrees, that's another reason why they're good vs lrms. LRMS turn slow and fire forward.

seeker 1000 speed.
disciple 800 speed.
LRM 800 speed.

You're assuming the LRM player is foolish enough to start a battle of attrition against your flaks. Flaks kill really slowly. They're great at _eventually_ killing the lrms destroying your structures, but they won't stop them. Further more, once the lrms are dead, flaks deal less than 1 dps to cap ships and structures. Completely worthless except as a desperation defense.

[ never mind ]

right.. i've said this myself already in this very same thread, maybe even twice.

This is exactly why i say defence vessals are the only flak that can counter LRMS early game, because they cost less than sentinels, and they seem to move quicker to me too, so you can get higher numbers out and chase them around. While with sentinels.. it takes a while until you can get enough to quickly kill lrms.

I don't know exactly why, but defence vessals seem to simply work early game while sentinels not really.

Granted defense vessals have much less hp, only slightly more shields, and lower armor and sentinels.. Their DPS is about the same (i'm not sure of the split.) while defence vessals cost far less, so you can actually get a lot of them out very early game.. yes, enough to kill lrms.

Ok the strat is very nice. It is not uncounterable, but it is hard to counter if you know what you are going up against from the start. So it would be very hard to counter this in a course of normal gameplay on a map such as that. This is what I will admit.

So far, after much thought, I think rushing heavies would be the best counter. If you can get some heavies there early before he summons any Dark Armada, then you can take out the gates and rain havoc. Even if he scouts the heavies coming, not much he can do to stop them.

Another strat to counter this that I am trying to piece together is not working out so well. It is taking too long to build up. While it might be faster if I was testing it in 2v2 with teammate handing me resources, I will not know it at this time.

@Innociv,

Seeker

Disciple

Javelis

All Flaks

Seekers are the fastest. They won't die as easily to LRMs as easily as Disciples because Disciples use the wrong kind of armor and Seekers don't. Get it?

And in 'late game', you get something called the heavy cruiser, so you don't need to rely on some damned flak ship to save you from the much-less-threatening LRMs.

Oh yeah, and Flaks are slower than LRMs and their acceleration is no match. You try bringing those stupid anti-fighter ships behind the LRMs and the LRMs destroy your capital ship and structures in the meantime. Flaks, on the other hand, are useless against both(as Jinx said). With a stronger attack, more speed, and much longer range, it is the LRM player's decision whether s/he wants to fight or not, and the flak player has no initiative, therefore.

nm, was linking the roe site, but pesky beat me to it.

Whao pesky..... disciples are the same as defense vessals?

Seriously dude, I'm not a noob.

I'm talking from what I know from practice here, not theory.

Defence vessels are flak ships, and flak ships don't own LRM's straight up. It's a simple fact. Disciples aren't that great against then honestly. I'd rather grab 3 hostility temples and tech Illuminators to fend em off, but I honestly don't know whether that's actually an effecient strat to fight them off, so if I'm wrong, by all means tell me. I just think that 3 lasers (max, not hard to have them moving and firing, and then place them right in the middle of the fleet to have all 3 going) at once an about 10 of them should kill off 10 LRMs.

Would you like some cheese with your whining?

rofl.. illums suck against lrms.

Yeah, illums are lrm equivs, but they are anti-cap damage, their dps is split 3 ways, and they cost the most crystal.
javs own illums early game, and it takes 3 mil.

Yeah, good luck on that there, mr expert.

So kind of prooves what i'm showing. While having basically the same DPS, defence vessals are considerably cheaper and use less supply, so you can be at the first supply with tons of defence vessals, enough to take on 2nd pop cap of lrm's. So they'll be bleeding from upkeep and you wouldn't be.

lol, this thread is full of epeen, failure and ownage. Good read

Everything suckcs compared to my newly found siege frig spam strat Commit to it 100% and you wont lose -guaranteed (unless your opponent executes it better )