innociv innociv

Press ctrl+f6 twice fastest to win - fix please?

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Press ctrl+f6 twice fastest to win - fix please?

from Sins Forums
The perfect build order is something around infrastructure-crystalmine-cap factory-cap queued-scout-metalmine-colony ship-metalmine-scout, minus the colony ship if you use a colony cap.

This build order requires more crystal than you start with, so at the begining of the build order you get zOMG RACE TO BUY 200 CRYSTAL FIRST.
1st person says 650
2nd- 750
3rd- 850
4th- 950
5th- 1050
6th-1150

In a 6 player game the 6th person to buy is paying nearly double.  I'm not masochistic enough to list out how it is on a 10 player game, it hurts too much just thinking about it.  It becomes not worth buying the 200 crystal.
The 1st and 2nd people can pull off this "perfect build order" fine. The 3rd and higher have to wait for their credits to come back up.
With the low income you have in the begining, being towards the end in more than a 1vs1 game sets you back more and more, MINUTES behind the other players.

Some of you seem to think that being set back minutes might not matter, but look at replies of the better players.  The higher level play 3v3 games tend to last 45-90 minutes, 2 hours at most.
It's in the first 20 minutes that the game starts to lean towards one team, so being MINUTES behind in the begining hurts alot.

Crystal income in the begining is only thirty per minute, and credits i believe is 780?  Screwing up someones early game with this silly game mechanic is bad.


The solution is simple, lock the black market prices to 300buy/200sell for the first 15 seconds, OR raise crystal by 200 and reduce credits by 700, OR fix the price of players first 200 crystal.

With how it is now it gives an advantage to simple who loads the game fastest then button mashes fastest.  You might as well just put in a response time measuring minigame when you first install and have the game run 3dMark 08 to see how fast their comp is, and simply reward those players with more resources at the game start based on that.
Fair, huh?
98,056 views 74 replies
Reply #26 from Sins Forums Top
An elegant solution:

The Black Market starts like a reverse auction.
Both metal and crystal start with a buying penality of 1000 credits (just an example).
So the starting sell price is still 200 but the starting buy price is 1300(300+1000).
Every second the buying penality is reduced by 10 credits, thus after 100 seconds the market will be back to normal.
Everytime crystal is bought, the penality reduction become twice as slow.

The solution will result in giving the early crystal (or metal) to the player(s) that are ready to pay the most for them. Players that wait for the crystal/metal to get too low to buy them will either end up having to pay more than the other players for them (after the other players bought their own), or will have to wait a very long time for the price to go down to their target level.
Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top
Your mistake is in assuming the infrustructure upgrade is a high priority one.. it costs LOTS, 225 metal and 225 crystal (and 650 money) and gives you the ability to slow grow the income from the planet by up to 3 more (you already get 4 for capital, and 3 from tax, it doubles tax)...

Instead I just make sure to go out and colonize quickly. I usually only purchase that upgrade when I have 5+ planets. at which point it isn't significant anymore.

My build order is as follows:
1. Crystal mines
2. Metal mines
3. 2 x scouts
4. Cap ship factory
5. Queue colony cap ship
6. Queue 2 or 3 combat frigates. Add more until cap as money is aquired.
- By step 6 it has been less then 20 seconds in the game.
I am now just waiting, I will have a full fleet ready for the colony ship. In fact I sometimes send 3 or 4 combat frigates to clear a nearby astroid before the capital is ready, since its better to save time.

even if I HAVE the money to build that last infrastructure upgrade it is simply not worth it until I am much richer, I will have many other uses for the money, from research to ships to orbital economy to what have you not.

Speaking of which, I think I will spam ctrl F6 my next game... not because I will need to crystal (it will slow me down a bit in building other things). But simply to punish the players who don't know any better and actually waste all those resources on upgrading their homeplanet's infrastructure.

just an FYI, an orbital trade station COSTS LESS and gives you the same money (as soon as it is built, rather then waiting until the population breeds) as the last upgrade to a terran planet.
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Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top
Ah, my bad, I missed the part where you suggested it.
Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
I hate to be so simple, knowing the flak I'll get, but I just bought a hecka-fast computer, and could probably hit f6 much faster than you. So don't change a thing.

Don't fix it. If you want more money, then pay it for the stuff early on and don't promote a cap ship quite as fast. C'mon people, INNOVATE!
Reply #30 from Sins Forums Top
An elegant solution:The Black Market starts like a reverse auction.Both metal and crystal start with a buying penality of 1000 credits (just an example).So the starting sell price is still 200 but the starting buy price is 1300(300+1000).Every second the buying penality is reduced by 10 credits, thus after 100 seconds the market will be back to normal.Everytime crystal is bought, the penality reduction become twice as slow.The solution will result in giving the early crystal (or metal) to the player(s) that are ready to pay the most for them. Players that wait for the crystal/metal to get too low to buy them will either end up having to pay more than the other players for them (after the other players bought their own), or will have to wait a very long time for the price to go down to their target level.
End of quote


Sounds pretty perfect. IIRC these are called "Dutch Auctions"?
They're one of the most elegant forms of auctions, and would fit this particular problem quite nicely.

And hopefully someone can patch something which drives Innociv to not play anymore. Please. :O
Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
This really does come down to the fact that the Pirates/Black Market doesnt have its own economy yet. The Devs have said its in the pipe works but wont be a for a little bit. eventually (to my understanding) the pirates will make money of the black market, as well as off of Bounties and some set amount for being, well organized crime. And have to buy ships with that money. When this happens im willing to bet the whole way the Black Market functions will change. BUT I would LOVE to see the price start high, and be connected to all the unowned mines. As "said" mines produce it goes on the black market. I really cant wait to see what IC has up their sleeve. Im sure we wont be disappointed whatever they decide.
Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
Yes the current system does reward whoever has the fastest machine. I know this cause I abuse it myself. while everyone is lagging or loading I buy up at least 700 credits worth of crystal. So I know its an unfair advantage. the best solution I see is to give and extra 200 crystal thats all there is to it. the price fluctuations in the upcoming patch will reason out the other problems with market spamming so I see no reason to implement random timers and such since the market will be prone to its own economy.
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top
If the strategy is paramount then why don't games start with less credits and more crystal?
Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top
No comments about me saying that only an utter noob needs crystal early on?
Until at LEAST 10 minutes into the game I need money most of all, metal second. Only then does crystal become an issue.

If you are running out of crystal early on you are playing the game wrong.
1. planet upgrades are over rated, only do them when needed. (level 1 and 2 civic upgrade ASAP. higher levels only when rich, everything else only when VERY rich)
2. Regular frigates (money + metal, but 0 crystal) should be the brunt of your force. Upgrade your fleet cap early.
Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top
God this is seriously getting so annoying.

Can't they put a last minute change in 1.03?
Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top
If you would take the time to actually read what he said instead of insulting everyone who thinks different then you, you would find he mentioned the word "random," meaning not a certain time limit. I actually think that would be a good idea, however, having not played multiplayer, and not even knowing this is what goes on in multiplayer games, my word won't carry much weight in this argument.I read it, I didn't think he was silly enough to actually mean random, he said a few minutes Never did he say random. He didn't have as horrible an idea as you, there.See, random would be even worse, and even stupider. Then it'd be "who's lucky enough to catch it when it opens first?" instead of "who loads and presses ctrl+f6 twice first?"Yeah, nice there.
End of quote


After all, it's not like adapting to random circumstances is part of strategy or anything, oh wait...

I love people who want nothing random in a strategy game. They want everything to go by the numbers so they can make one winning strategy that beats them all, never having to change their strategy to oustide forces (by outside, I mean non-player controlled). One of my favorite aspects of the Total War series was weather, random btw, that could help or hinder an army based on the troops being used, you just had to make do with what you had in the circumstances given.

Oh, and btw, he did say random:



You could disable the black market for a random period in the first few minutes of the game. That way it would be unpredictable, and harder for people to be sitting there waiting for the crystal market to open up. While that wouldn't negate the effect of the initial crystal purchase, it may discourage people from trying early in the game because of the hassle.
End of quote


As I said, read the post first.

Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
I don't really see what the arguement.

All higher level players know you need to buy 200 crystal at start to advance fastest.
All of them know your crystal income is much less than credits early on.
All of them do relatively the same build order to get the fastest start, it needs the crystal.

So with how it is now whoever clicks first gets an advantage. This is stupid.
In a 6 player game the 4th, 5th, and 6th people have to wait or sell metal to get cap factory up. -_-

The current system rewards who has the fastest issue.
This is a big huge issue with the games gameplay, more than any other as it effects everyone(every non newbie) every game -_-
Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
To be honest, this seems like an unavoidable consequence of having a Magical Unlimited Marketplace that sells infinite resources at quickly-spiking and dropping prices. Slap in an option to disable the Magical Market and restrict it to the actual player-driven market and this would instantly go away. You also wouldn't be able to buy infinite quantities of resources from... Magical Land... which makes money and trade so important.

The unlimited market could be made to work, but I think it should always remain a secondary market after the player-driven one. Simply removing the childish 'start at 300/200, always gravitate back to it over 5m' thing would make a huge difference: start it at something much higher and have it respond to the going player sale rate instead of the Magical Price that it magically returns to over time for no reason. Unless there's someone out there secretly outproducing all the players in the game and selling their crystal for cheap, it makes little sense. Starting the price higher would mean it's not the early-game killer it currently is, and removing the 'natural price' would mean it could be driven up or down AND STAY THERE, rather than the current 'oh just wait a few minutes' system.

More player input and less arbirary rules = win.
Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
or you know, don't be a scrub and play to win, thus don't buy the planet infrastructure upgrade right off the bat, it's a horrible purchase. It takes a couple of minutes for your pop to grow into, when it does your max income increases by 3.
It costs 650 credit + 225 metal + 225 crystal. If you buy 200 crystal and 200 metal at min price (300 and then 350) you just payed 1300 credits for the materials (and waited for 25 extra to form, or payed for an extra 100 out of which you needed only 25). If you paid EXTRA you just wasted even MORE money that you didn't need to waste.

So you pay 1950 credits + 25 metal + 25 crystal to build it. at a rate of 3 credits per second that's over 11 minutes until it pays for itself. 11 minutes for which you are behind on expansion and upgrading your economy in more economical ways. Not to mention it takes some minutes to build and to actually get to that type of income (population grows slowly). So it takes over 20 minutes from the moment you paid that money until it gets paid back. Or you can use that money for something more worthwhile.

On the other hand, buying upgrade level 1 for a planet infrastructure costs MUCH less and give you an INSTANT reduction to upkeep. Building a trade station also gives an instant 3 income and costs half as much. Better purchase by far.
Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
Lol, what?

There is so many wrong things and misinformation in your post taltamir that I can't even begin to point them out.
Sort of nullifies your point, doesn't it?
Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top
Lol, what?There is so many wrong things and misinformation in your post taltamir that I can't even begin to point them out.Sort of nullifies your point, doesn't it?
End of quote


umm how does you saying nothing nullify his point? Really, you nullified your own post... stop being an ass. He actually had something to say, and made a point.

If +80% of players need +200 crystal to do the most basic of starts (personally i wait to do the pop upgrade, and use the money to upgrade the first thing I colonize)
then why not just add 100-200 to starting resources and call it a day. However the reply you are looking for saying "good job super cool forums guy! we will change the game we spent over a year and ???? cash just they way you want" Will probebly never come...
Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top
Fixing one instance of a problem caused by a poor concept (ie, bottomless black market) is missing the point. I wonder if you could mod the base price for resources to 3k-4k (to take it out of the game) and see what diplomacy comes from forcing players to deal with a closed economy.
Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top
closed economy... now theres a worth while idea  :CONGRAT: 
Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top
Fast fix : add 200 crystal as starting resource.

For the other problems, the patch note is unclear to what happens to the black market. We'll have to wait until it comes out to see how exactly it works now.
Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top
I dont think, that adding more crystal to starting resources would fix the problem. This would still give the player who buys first the lowest prices and thus an advantage against players with slower computers.

The reverse auction seems perfect to solve the problem.
Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top
I too would really like a closed economy to control availability on the black market. I think it would make the game a lot more strategic.

Barring that, I would also be happy with a reverse auction countdown or temporary price freeze. Hopefully 1.03 will get us closer to something that is more equitable.
Reply #47 from Sins Forums Top
Hooray for closed economy.

"So with how it is now whoever clicks first gets an advantage. This is stupid."
--Lol. Whoever does ANYTHING first gets an advantage. It is not stupid, it's life. My parents bought their house before I bought mine, now they have more principal when it comes time to sell! OMG, NERF MY FOLKS!

/end sarcasm
*walks away*
Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top
Civil infrastructure upgrade is equivalent to 3-4 tradeports. You are a hopeless noob if you think it's not worth it. You are even more hopeless if you queue all 3 extractors, you only start with 2 assembly drones.
Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top
As Astax said.. You newbies just aren't getting it. I hope to god IC isn't just cattering this game to people who don't know how to play and can't use google-calculator. -_- No offense and all, your arguements would be fine if you actually made valid points, but you're not. This IS an issue. The market place changes are NOT going to resolve it. The Marketplace fluxtuations and boom/crash is for other reasons, not this.

No they should add 200 crystal and REMOVE 700 credits.
Then people get the starting resources they need.

It's not 80% of players.
It's 100% of players that know how to play, and none of the newbies.

Random prices in the market isn't going to fix this, it's just going to make peope pa even more I imagine.
But even if the crystal costs 1000, it's worth buying it at the start as your crystal income is 30 a minute while credit incoming is near 750 a minute as I've already said.


It's changing 2 numbers and will improve the game so much. -_- All the higher level players want it to happen, except for the ones that somehow manage to always get it first so they like having the ADVANTAGE. Soon we're just going to see people using macro's to auto-buy 200 at the very start of the game if it isn't resolved.
Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top
Will, we don't mean the Market should be locked, we mean the PRICES should be locked for a brief time. That way no one is penalized for what they want to buy...within 30 seconds or so when the market starts fluctuating, everyone should already have what they want for their chosen start.