innociv innociv

Press ctrl+f6 twice fastest to win - fix please?

▼

Press ctrl+f6 twice fastest to win - fix please?

from Sins Forums
The perfect build order is something around infrastructure-crystalmine-cap factory-cap queued-scout-metalmine-colony ship-metalmine-scout, minus the colony ship if you use a colony cap.

This build order requires more crystal than you start with, so at the begining of the build order you get zOMG RACE TO BUY 200 CRYSTAL FIRST.
1st person says 650
2nd- 750
3rd- 850
4th- 950
5th- 1050
6th-1150

In a 6 player game the 6th person to buy is paying nearly double.  I'm not masochistic enough to list out how it is on a 10 player game, it hurts too much just thinking about it.  It becomes not worth buying the 200 crystal.
The 1st and 2nd people can pull off this "perfect build order" fine. The 3rd and higher have to wait for their credits to come back up.
With the low income you have in the begining, being towards the end in more than a 1vs1 game sets you back more and more, MINUTES behind the other players.

Some of you seem to think that being set back minutes might not matter, but look at replies of the better players.  The higher level play 3v3 games tend to last 45-90 minutes, 2 hours at most.
It's in the first 20 minutes that the game starts to lean towards one team, so being MINUTES behind in the begining hurts alot.

Crystal income in the begining is only thirty per minute, and credits i believe is 780?  Screwing up someones early game with this silly game mechanic is bad.


The solution is simple, lock the black market prices to 300buy/200sell for the first 15 seconds, OR raise crystal by 200 and reduce credits by 700, OR fix the price of players first 200 crystal.

With how it is now it gives an advantage to simple who loads the game fastest then button mashes fastest.  You might as well just put in a response time measuring minigame when you first install and have the game run 3dMark 08 to see how fast their comp is, and simply reward those players with more resources at the game start based on that.
Fair, huh?
98,058 views 74 replies
Reply #51 from Sins Forums Top
As Astax said.. You newbies just aren't getting it. I hope to god IC isn't just cattering this game to people who don't know how to play and can't use google-calculator. -_- No offense and all, your arguements would be fine if you actually made valid points, but you're not. This IS an issue. The market place changes are NOT going to resolve it. The Marketplace fluxtuations and boom/crash is for other reasons, not this.No they should add 200 crystal and REMOVE 700 credits.Then people get the starting resources they need.It's not 80% of players.It's 100% of players that know how to play, and none of the newbies.Random prices in the market isn't going to fix this, it's just going to make peope pa even more I imagine.But even if the crystal costs 1000, it's worth buying it at the start as your crystal income is 30 a minute while credit incoming is near 750 a minute as I've already said.It's changing 2 numbers and will improve the game so much. -_- All the higher level players want it to happen, except for the ones that somehow manage to always get it first so they like having the ADVANTAGE. Soon we're just going to see people using macro's to auto-buy 200 at the very start of the game if it isn't resolved.
End of quote


After all, everyone who uses your starting strat is automatically a really skilled player, and everyone who uses their own is a noob.
Reply #52 from Sins Forums Top
... i say again, rework the whole blackmarket/Pirate economy and BaBAM! the issue will be MORE then fixed!

-Closed Economy-  :CONGRAT: 

(for which the devs have ALREADY said they "have plenty up their sleeves" so we can discuss this all we want but the issue is already known and, what im sure is a very eligant solution to more then just this particular problem, is already in the works.)
Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #53 from Sins Forums Top
There is no good start that doesn't involve an extra 100-300 crystal.

Someone doing it doesn't' automatically make them good, but it's a start.
Reply #54 from Sins Forums Top
Will, we don't mean the Market should be locked, we mean the PRICES should be locked for a brief time. That way no one is penalized for what they want to buy...within 30 seconds or so when the market starts fluctuating, everyone should already have what they want for their chosen start.
End of quote


Actually, I'm against price-fixing in the early game. Why? Because the idea behind the market is that as more people want metal and crystal, the price of metal and crystal should go up; that a greater demand for crystal means that some people (who are playing the market less effectively) will have to pay an exorbitant amount for their crystal or go without. I've got no problem with this; that's how the system was designed to work.

What I don't like is that right now, the winners in the early-moments crystal rush are the ones who loaded the map the fastest. This means that meta-game issues are deciding in-game contests, which feels wrong to me.

I'm in favor of a solution that:

* Doesn't penalize players with slow computers or long loading times.
* Rewards players for observing the market state, rather than pounding CTRL+F6 as fast as possible.
* Doesn't defang the market. (no price fixing)

Some of the ideas that seem to meet those requirements:

* Market becomes active at a random time in the first couple minutes.
* Player can use the black market at Civil 1.
* Player can use the black market when they've found the pirate base.
* Reverse-auction (Phoebus, Reply #26)
Reply #55 from Sins Forums Top
ok, so you don't like temporary price fixing....TEMPORARY! we all understand the issue, not sure why you had to restate it. some of what you suggest works for me too...anything but ctrl f6 spam, which we all agree is bad. I'm on your side.
Reply #56 from Sins Forums Top
Yeah the market sucks but they're not redoing it for next patch.
And even with some big changes to it, people still need 200 crystal more early on and 700 credits less. ;/

Change those two numbers now, make changes to the market later.
They've already said they were planning to have a better market but that's harder to implement than changing 2 numbers of starting resources.. They could throw that in 1.03 if they really cared about improving the game. :/
Reply #57 from Sins Forums Top
ok, so you don't like temporary price fixing....TEMPORARY! we all understand the issue, not sure why you had to restate it.
End of quote


Just thought I'd summarize some of the arguments so far, since the thread seemed to be drifting off topic in the direction of whose build rocks and whose build sucks and who should learn to play, which I think is worthless. No aggression was intended.

I understand I'm taking a weirdly extreme position against price fixing; but I feel that even temporary price fixing, especially at a point where people are likely to be relying upon the market, takes away the drawbacks of using it. That's just my opinion though.

Anyway; I agree that while we all have wildly different ideas about how to fix the problem, or what the problem specifically is, most of us agree that a problem exists. You'll have no argument from me there. :)

Change those two numbers now, make changes to the market later.
They've already said they were planning to have a better market but that's harder to implement than changing 2 numbers of starting resources.. They could throw that in 1.03 if they really cared about improving the game. :/
End of quote


I'm sorry; I emphatically disagree, innociv. The early game should be about choices and tradeoffs. Right now, the currently popular build (which I also use, btw) involves a tradeoff: you buy enough crystal to afford all your starting purchases at once. That's your choice, though; and given other people's responses in the forums, it's possible that other viable build orders exist. Take away the choice, and suddenly everybody starts with all the crystal they'd want to buy everything right off the bat, and the early game stagnates.

So, no, I'd much rather we fix the CTRL+F6 spam than readjust the starting resources. I don't think your starting build is as unsurpassed as you make it out to be.
Reply #58 from Sins Forums Top
THERE IS NO CHOICE.

You CANNOT CHOOSE to not buy 200 crystal, or at least 100, at the start.
It's OUT OF THE QUESTION. If you don't, you have lost.

As I said, might as well make people start with a random amount of credits.
Reply #59 from Sins Forums Top
mmm... 5 second limit before you can buy anything in black market after the game loads.

Personally I am a fan of a closed market system, I don't like that botomless black market because it breaks the suspention of disbeleif. I am a galactic tyrant damn you, lemme have my escape from reality...

I liked how I was countered with being called a noob for queuing all three extractors becaue "you only have 2 construction drones". Way to go putting me in my place and being clever about it by turning my own argument against me. Except that there is no downside to queuing extra extractors as my construction is never slowed down.
If I waited until the first two extractors built before queuing a third one, I Would still have ended up building the same amount of things in the interim, because I don't lack money at that stage of the game (by sinking it into useless things like level 4 social upgrade)...

And the 4 trade ports figure is laugheable, It is worth a few percent more or a few LESS then one trade port, depending on the size of your network. they both generate about 3 credits per second. The trade port is much cheaper, but takes up slots.
Reply #60 from Stardock Forums Top
I'd rather see an approach where the starting Black Market prices are way too high to even consider buying. They would then start to lower in value until they reached the point where players/computers thought the price was worth it.

This would flat out eliminate the rush to buy resources from the black market at the start of the game. The choice of using the black market later becomes one of when you think the price has lowered enough to be worth the credits.
Reply #61 from Sins Forums Top
After all, it's not like adapting to random circumstances is part of strategy or anything, oh wait...I love people who want nothing random in a strategy game. They want everything to go by the numbers so they can make one winning strategy that beats them all, never having to change their strategy to oustide forces (by outside, I mean non-player controlled).
End of quote


It'd be all well and good for competitive players if this were an option that could be turned off but in actual competition, there's no room for random chance. Nobody would play chess competitively if there were a 5% chance of a player's queen randomly dropping dead on a given turn (or, more appropriately, if the first person who sat at the table started with more pieces).

There's a reason that chance options like items in Smash Bros. are generally disabled in tournaments. Competitive play (in most gaming outside of Casino-style tournaments, at least) is supposed to be about player vs. player on equal footing.

Now, whether or not this game is going to cater to those sorts of competitive players is another issue but if it is, then this kind of advantage which is, more or less, based on who happens to get the first lucky click, has no place. Not unless there's some way to disable the black-market feature, at least.
Reply #62 from Sins Forums Top
I'd rather see an approach where the starting Black Market prices are way too high to even consider buying. They would then start to lower in value until they reached the point where players/computers thought the price was worth it.This would flat out eliminate the rush to buy resources from the black market at the start of the game. The choice of using the black market later becomes one of when you think the price has lowered enough to be worth the credits.
End of quote


As I've already said.. Even if it cost 2000 credits for 100 crystal, it'd be worthwhile buying it instead of waiting for crystal to trickle in.
Actually read my posts, I've already explained why 3 or 4 times. Theres, you know, actual math and facts to back this up.
Reply #63 from Sins Forums Top
Still going strong I see :P  Just to let everyone know, most of these issues will be altered or irrelvent with the new market changes.
Reply #64 from Sins Forums Top
It seams many people agree,
This is a problem.
Ironclad put this in the 1.03 patch
The simplest soloution is the best;
subtract 700 credits & add 200 chrystal to the starting resources
and lets move on to more interesting points (dark fleet).
Reply #65 from Sins Forums Top
It seams many people agree,This is a problem.Ironclad put this in the 1.03 patchThe simplest soloution is the best;subtract 700 credits & add 200 chrystal to the starting resourcesand lets move on to more interesting points (dark fleet).
End of quote


Bad solution, since only those amatures here who fail to understand basic math actually need that extra 200 crystal and have spare cash. For more experienced players like me it is the other way around.

Honestly the real valid issue here is that the faster computers get a purchase first, and that there is a magic botomless pit of a market not connected to anything. This causes a variety of exploits and issues. They aren't solved THIS issue, they are reworking the marketplace which renders this and other issues irrelevant.
Reply #66 from Sins Forums Top
"only those amatures here who fail to understand basic math actually need that extra 200 crystal and have spare cash. For more experienced players like me it is the other way around."
Uhm.. Sorry but you're the one that fails in math if you think you need credits and not crystal at start.

All the experienced players know this. IF you disagree, then no offense, but well you get the idea.

It's not a matter of opinion, or choice, it's a REQUIREMENT to buy 200 at the start(100 is okay if you go colony cap). Otherwise you set yourself back about 6 minutes if you just wait for the crystal to trickle in. It's a FACT that you need this extra crystal to start with.
If you pay 2000 for your 200 crystal, you're only set back 3 minutes. So even when crystal is expensive as hell, it's still better to buy it than wait for crystal.
Reply #67 from Sins Forums Top
Well, another thing is why do we need to even build this stuff? Almost every 4x game starts you off with a couple scouts and a colony ship. Also, if you have no crystal mines, where'd you get all that starting crystal in the first place? If anything's broken, it's that you start with none of this stuff but you DO get a free cap ship once you build the (not free) capital ship factory. If you are aggressive enough with it you can force an endgame in a matter of minutes.

But, I disagree it's a 'requirement'. Colonizing other planets right away just costs you more money. Money now is always worth money later, which is why compound interest is something people are willing to pay. Upgrading the home planet is also not a mandatory this instant thing when the extra money it brings won't catch up to the price you pay for some time. If it weren't for the fact you get a free capital ship right off the bat, this would be much more apparent.
Reply #68 from Sins Forums Top
This issue has been basically resolved in 1.03.

So I guess I owe IC a thanks. Though it'd still prefer -700 starting credits +200 crystal, as there is slight unevenness but it's nothing to whine and moan about like we were in 1.02.

Now with the market when you buy metal/crystal the price slowly creeps up to some point(i imagine) instead of popping up +50 each buy. So after you buy you see the price going up.

This system is way way way way way nicer. Though damn the sell prices sure are cheap now..
Reply #69 from Sins Forums Top
All the experienced players know this. IF you disagree, then no offense, but well you get the idea.

It's not a matter of opinion, or choice, it's a REQUIREMENT to buy 200 at the start(100 is okay if you go colony cap). Otherwise you set yourself back about 6 minutes if you just wait for the crystal to trickle in. It's a FACT that you need this extra crystal to start with.
If you pay 2000 for your 200 crystal, you're only set back 3 minutes. So even when crystal is expensive as hell, it's still better to buy it than wait for crystal.
End of quote


And yet, I have never lost a game... I don't know who those "experienced players" are, but they appear to know jack shit.
Reply #70 from Stardock Forums Top
innociv says:
As I've already said.. Even if it cost 2000 credits for 100 crystal, it'd be worthwhile buying it instead of waiting for crystal to trickle in.Actually read my posts, I've already explained why 3 or 4 times. Theres, you know, actual math and facts to back this up.
End of quote


If there was actual math involved there is no way you would claim that they couldn't set a price point where it would be a bad idea to exchange credit for crystals.

Obvious counter example. Determine how much money a player can make in an average length game. If 100 crystal costs that much then it would never get bought. I'm not saying they should be that extreme, but they can make it a strategicaly interesting choice as to whether it's worth exchanging money for crystal. The blackmarket starting price of 300 credits for 100 crystal is way over balanced in the direction of too useful of an exchange rate.
Reply #71 from Stardock Forums Top
You are saying something too extreme if you think crystal should ever cost more than 2k..
Reply #72 from Sins Forums Top
Perhaps have a cheap, early tech to activate the player's ability to buy on the Black Market, and have it cost a significant amount of the starting resources. Thus, the player has a choice: use the resources to start black market trading, or start up the navy and economy right away. I am loathe to suggest a new tech and to make an ability assumed to be present be more difficult to activate, but perhaps the benefits will outweigh the extra work.
Reply #74 from Sins Forums Top
Why not simply start with 500 less credits and 200 more crystal? Then nobody would want to rush-buy and we can keep the old (and way better) market economy.
Simple solutions FTW?