I would tend to agree with you. However, how long does it take to get your second capital ship up and running? 10 minutes? It costs 3000 credits plus metal and crystal to build that second capital ship. Now, if you took the money from scuttling the factory and invested it in your economy, it pays back, like intrest in a bank account. After 10 minutes, the credits from scuttling the capital ship may have gotten your economy up and running and may be worth 5000 credits at the 10 minute mark, or whatever.

I've actually thought about this myself. It would be easy to test really. Just run 2 timed simulations. In one 10 minute run, scuttle the Capital Shipyard and see how long it takes to build a second shipyard + Capital Ship. Use the early income to invest in your economy. In the other simulation, don't scuttle it. In both scenarios, buy exactly the same # of units. Obviously, in the scuttled scenario, you will have extra money, but how much is the question. Use the extra money to reinvest in your economy. You will be able to afford population increases and resource extractors sooner on your 2nd/3rd worlds. And then just compare them.

It would probably be more accurate if you chose not to scuttle first, have less cash, and build your normal fleet, and then go back and run it again buying the same # of ships.

I wish I had more time to play to figure this stuff out. Next weekend, this will definitely be on the agenda because I've been wondering this myself.

edit: And keep track of buildings/uprades too. With the extra money spent on upgrades, you may be making more money, but it may take more than 10 minutes for the extra economy to kick in. Like in the scuttled scenario, you may have an extra planet with 3 extractors making cash, but it hasn't quite caught up to pay itself off yet. Its definitely an interesting question.

actually by the time u get your second cap ship, u wouldve already researched the reduce cost upgrade that decreases the cost for mines, frigate and captial ship factories and something else. cap ship should be 600ish i believe than

i generally scuttle it after building my 2nd cap ship. i will usually get a 2nd cap ship very early, usually right around the time i've finished colonizing local asteroids and whatever lightly defended terran or desert planets are nearby. its usually so early that i haven't even researched ice/molten colonization. i find that the net gain from getting cap ship #2 early is immense in the extra experience the ship will give you and the ability to easily take out heavily defended terran/desert planets without taking losses. typically there are 2-3 kodiak heavy cruisers defending those planets and they can make mincemeat out of an early game force of light frigates and LRMs, but they hardly make a dent in capital ships.

by the way, if you haven't tried it yet, i highly recommend building a colonizer ship first to grab the asteroids and then building a battleship as your 2nd cap to step up your damage output. in particular this combination is fantastic with the vasari and leads to a very fast and very potent early game.

on the other hand i usually don't try to build a 3rd capital ship for quite a long time and will generally only do so once i'm setting up my forward fleet base, a heavily defended planet with multiple frigate factories and repair platforms.

Its hard to say really without running a few simulations because its hard to quantify the effect of having that extra money early on would do for your economy 10-15 minutes down the road.

Infact, the best way to test it would also to start a custom random map, with no pirates, and 1 AI that was the Fortify type so you wouldn't have to worry about it. And then, as soon as the game starts, Save the game, so that the resource distribution is the same for both scenarios. It would only take 30 minutes or so for one complete comparison.

I'm going to do it myself next weekend and test it out and post my methods and results next weekend. And hour and a half running simulations isn't really all that ridiculous when I see myself playing over 100 hours worth of Sins over the next 6 months. Having the most efficient early start early on would definitely be worth it.

I have no idea what the numbers are going to turn out being, but I really want to find out though. I don't like the idea of scuttling the factory if I don't have to.

Aquiantus, I'm not sure if I'm reading your post correctly, but it seems you posted under the wrong thread.

The economy boost from scuttling doesn't have to be that great, it just has to make up for the 1000 credits minus the recovered resources by the time you would normally have gotten your second capital ship up and running.

I'm not giving specifics, because the costs and economies are slightly different for each race. It may even turn out that the difference is close enough so that it might benefit TEC in scuttling, but it may be better for Advent to leave it constructed. I'm going to test Advent when I try it next weekend, and then TEC if I have the time.

Xeno, we're just debating the efficiency of it. By scuttling your shipyard you MAY be able to afford to rebuild the shipyard and get a 2nd Capital ship faster than if you didn't scuttle it because of the early enhancement of your economy. I'm looking forward to getting the results.

I scuttle the factory so that I can max my trade ports on my HW.

I've learned that while having an extra cap quickly is okay, it's better to have more supporting little ships. Think in terms of real naval fleet compositions -- you never sail just your battleships -- you need escorts to draw fire and distract the enemy.

I once faced a guy who was running 9 caps to my three ___nine___ I nearly quit right there. But I noticed he had no supporting frigates or CAs. So I built up a force of nearly 50 LRM and focus fired his caps to death, one by one. I could have teched for more caps, but I had the fleet supply on hand.

Same game, little later, dude's partner rolls in with 60 avent carriers and three advent caps carriers. All bombers.

I get blown back, switch to flak and mass my own carriers with fighters, and overmatch him -- flak screen the fleet, fighters intercept, and pretty soon I hunt down his carriers and wipe him out.

Its moving the capship yard that can be the tipping point on some maps. Ever have your homeworld 4 or 5 jumps from the star on an interstellar map? You want your caps to get built close to the action because they take so long to jump / cross systems.

Yes, early resources are magnified over time, but can you really predict the impact of a paltry early scuttle? There's too much variation, unless you play a very strict build order for some map you are familiar with, IMO. I can definitely see the point on a small MP map where its fairly predictable for you as to when/where you'll need to build a second capship yard.

Looking forward to it, and to how you calculate it Krauser

edit: sorry, double post

i'm sorry, but that just seems wrong to me. capital ships are the anchors of fleets, and they have abilities that have significant synergy if you pick your ships well. i find it crucially important to have access to a powerful disabling ability like Ion Bolt (on the Akkan) in addition to the raw firepower of a Kol battleship. I find that the anti-matter destruction of the EMP Bomb (on the Dunov) is a critical factor against enemy repair cruisers. i think your missing out on way too much if you only build 1 capital ship.

look dude, for all your vaunted wisdom and strategy, you seem to have failed to learn to communicate respectfully. you think your ultra-aggressive macho crap gets you any degree of respect?

we get it, you think that the game is all about rushing. i guess you play almost exclusively 1on1 duels on small maps. wow, you're talented, you figured out a way to win on 1 of the dozens of different ways that people play this game.

there's nothing badly reasoned about any of my statements. the only bad reasoning here is your assumption that everyone wants to play the game the same way you do.

go try any of your strats on a 4 player map with 3 stars and 40+ planets and watch as your fleet of 1 cap ship and a dozen frigates gets lost in space as you get torn apart by a pirate raid and 1 or 2 incoming players who noticed your incredibly weak position.

there's no sponsored play or ladder play in this game and the fact is its an epic scaled strategy game designed and balanced for larger maps with multiple players. this isn't Warcraft 3 1v1 on the battle.net ladder. you should stopping making posts as if anyone was impressed by your machismo and your arrogance.